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  1. #31
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    I don't have trouble with wordiness, I have trouble with giving enough detail. I can say or write the very core of my thought, thinking that any more is redundant and obvious, just to find that no one really got my point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Perhaps INTPs may struggle to communicate well because they think in wholes and must express in parts so it's like drip feeding an ocean sometimes. I'm guessing it's similar for all NTs, it's just that it occurs at different stages in their thinking/ communication.
    Nowhere do I experience these things more than when talking to my ISTJ friend. In fact, it reached a point years ago where I just gave up trying to tell him or explain to him anything at all.

    I tend to find myself in the position Xander describes perhaps more so because of Ne being so dominant with me. Sometimes it compensates for itself by picking up very quickly when someone's not following, and finding other ways of putting things. But a lot of the time I find myself torn between giving people a bit of credit and talking freely, trusting them to understand, and trying to be more 'linear', and thereby having this awful feeling that I'm condescending, patronising and talking to them as though they were idiots.

    My ISTJ friend is a member of MENSA, and yet the way I have to explain things to him in order for him to follow me and 'get it', feels to me like I'm talking to a three year old child, and it seems his mind is impossibly slow. If I hadn't seen him do The Times crossword in under 8 minutes, or advanced calculus for fun, before my very eyes, and if he didn't consistently wipe the floor with me at chess, I'd think he was stupid and that MENSA made a mistake.

    When he explains things to me, I get very, very impatient and bored because he lingers over things, goes through in tedious stages that he could quite easily skip, because by the time he's said the first line I've already made it to the end of the explanation in my head, and it's excrutiating for me to sit there politely letting him go through the motions and pretending a big 'Aha!' when he reaches the end, as though I were in the dark right up to when he started to triumphantly bang his fist on the table and say "And that's why...!"
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  2. #32
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Well, doesn’t the natural SJ scepticism towards ideas tend to get in the way when one explains ideas to them? Don’t they tend to judge the ideas too early in the explanation and compare it to something familiar and accepted right away? Don’t they tend to focus way too much on judging rather than understanding? When people explain me ideas or concepts I just try to absorb and understand them. That’s my main motivation. Secondly I reflect upon them and judge.

  3. #33
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    Well, doesn’t the natural SJ scepticism towards ideas tend to get in the way when one explains ideas to them? Don’t they tend to judge the ideas too early in the explanation and compare it to something familiar and accepted right away? Don’t they tend to focus way too much on judging rather than understanding? When people explain me ideas or concepts I just try to absorb and understand them. That’s my main motivation. Secondly I reflect upon them and judge.
    Yeah, that's an N strength, I think. When I try to explain to the ISTJ that this is the way I think, he looks at me like he's 100% certain I'm bullshitting, trying to make out I'm some kind of saint, and says "Don't be silly, we all make judgements, we can't help it." He just doesn't seem to get it - or he can get the concept, but he can't then make the leap of believing that to some people this isn't just a concept, but their natural way of thinking and way of life. Even if he can leap that far, he simply refuses to then believe that I am one of these people. He tends to think it's just 'people in books' or 'on TV'.

    I think when I talk to N's, I have the feeling that my idea is sorta neutral until proven bad, in their eyes, though more so with P's than J's, but talking to SJ's I get the feeling that I'm guilty until proven innocent.

    I've found the only way to get things through and get new ideas received in a way that's close to open, by an SJ, is to find some interest of theirs and use it to explain the idea. Like Dave the ISTJ is a big film buff, so if I can think of an example of the sort of thing I'm talking about from a film, and use film references, he seems to take it on board far more than if I just talk as I would to my other close friends, most of whom are iNtuitives.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Opivy1980's Avatar
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    I don't have trouble putting my thoughts into words when I am talking to another intellectual. However, if I am talking to the average ape, then, yes I do , because they constantly ask me what I am saying and then I have to find a less descriptive way of conveying my thoughts.
    Question everything especially yourself.

    Opivy1980

  5. #35
    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Nowhere do I experience these things more than when talking to my ISTJ friend. In fact, it reached a point years ago where I just gave up trying to tell him or explain to him anything at all.

    I tend to find myself in the position Xander describes perhaps more so because of Ne being so dominant with me. Sometimes it compensates for itself by picking up very quickly when someone's not following, and finding other ways of putting things. But a lot of the time I find myself torn between giving people a bit of credit and talking freely, trusting them to understand, and trying to be more 'linear', and thereby having this awful feeling that I'm condescending, patronising and talking to them as though they were idiots.

    My ISTJ friend is a member of MENSA, and yet the way I have to explain things to him in order for him to follow me and 'get it', feels to me like I'm talking to a three year old child, and it seems his mind is impossibly slow. If I hadn't seen him do The Times crossword in under 8 minutes, or advanced calculus for fun, before my very eyes, and if he didn't consistently wipe the floor with me at chess, I'd think he was stupid and that MENSA made a mistake.

    When he explains things to me, I get very, very impatient and bored because he lingers over things, goes through in tedious stages that he could quite easily skip, because by the time he's said the first line I've already made it to the end of the explanation in my head, and it's excrutiating for me to sit there politely letting him go through the motions and pretending a big 'Aha!' when he reaches the end, as though I were in the dark right up to when he started to triumphantly bang his fist on the table and say "And that's why...!"
    I could have writen this, substitute.

    My husband is an ISTJ and I've had problems trying to explain to him why I have problems explaining things to him.

    This signature left intentionally blank.

    Really.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Cerpin_Taxt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    I also have a hard time with vocabulary and picking the right word. Part of it is knowing a lot of words but forgetting many of them. It's like understanding a foreign language but not being able to speak it.
    The same thing happens to me all the uh....uh....uh....time.

  7. #37
    Member OK Radio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    I don't have trouble with wordiness, I have trouble with giving enough detail. I can say or write the very core of my thought, thinking that any more is redundant and obvious, just to find that no one really got my point. They usually understood what I said, but not the whole extent of it.

    I also have a hard time with vocabulary and picking the right word. Part of it is knowing a lot of words but forgetting many of them. It's like understanding a foreign language but not being able to speak it.

    Then theres the fact that I'm hesitant to say much of anything because in the past a mis-step in wording or a premature revelation of some sort has resulted in serious conflict that I'd like to avoid.

    I take in information - and then I horde it.
    Gen, I get what you said, entirely.

    I dearly love Flaubert's concept of le mot juste. I struggle with keeping to the ideal of providing the proper wording in the briefest fashion to convey my exact meaning.

    It bothers me to be too wordy or, even worse, have my meaning misunderstood. I attempt to be brief and on topic to the point of sounding curt or insensitive.

    I'll err on the side of rambling if it means getting my ultimate point across, but it always makes me uneasy to go on at length. I only go this route with trusted friends.

    In general, I figure most conversations are not being held to get to some ultimate truth, so I simply reply succinctly and don't let it worry me if I'm ultimately misunderstood.

  8. #38
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Nowhere do I experience these things more than when talking to my ISTJ friend. In fact, it reached a point years ago where I just gave up trying to tell him or explain to him anything at all.

    I tend to find myself in the position Xander describes perhaps more so because of Ne being so dominant with me. Sometimes it compensates for itself by picking up very quickly when someone's not following, and finding other ways of putting things. But a lot of the time I find myself torn between giving people a bit of credit and talking freely, trusting them to understand, and trying to be more 'linear', and thereby having this awful feeling that I'm condescending, patronising and talking to them as though they were idiots.

    My ISTJ friend is a member of MENSA, and yet the way I have to explain things to him in order for him to follow me and 'get it', feels to me like I'm talking to a three year old child, and it seems his mind is impossibly slow. If I hadn't seen him do The Times crossword in under 8 minutes, or advanced calculus for fun, before my very eyes, and if he didn't consistently wipe the floor with me at chess, I'd think he was stupid and that MENSA made a mistake.

    When he explains things to me, I get very, very impatient and bored because he lingers over things, goes through in tedious stages that he could quite easily skip, because by the time he's said the first line I've already made it to the end of the explanation in my head, and it's excrutiating for me to sit there politely letting him go through the motions and pretending a big 'Aha!' when he reaches the end, as though I were in the dark right up to when he started to triumphantly bang his fist on the table and say "And that's why...!"
    I have an ISTJ friend and I sooo get your situation. It takes him half an hour to say what I can put in about 3 lines and yet he's the one with the degree.

    I think with ISTJs they are good within systems they recognise and understand, take them out of that and they're a pain in the ass. We sometimes play board games and he HAS to have the rules and check EVERY situation with them. No intuitive understanding of the rules purpose or anything. Having him as a DM in D&D was an adventure in and of itself!!!

    Mind you though they are odd creatures with information, they half expect you to get their obtuse references to pieces of information which they sucked up in 1903 but they can't follow a simple reference hidden in a subtext or something.

    I have at points tried to sell ideas to this person and have sworn multiple times to give up trying as the level of details necessary and the step by step approach is painful but there again he swore off arguing with me because (and I quote) "You keep persuading me of your views and I don't want to be persuaded." Now that was fun

    Mind you though the times when I find myself struggling to put together a sentence/ paragraph/ speech is when writing. All those nuances of the spoken word are lost. The sarcastic tone, the internal monologue, the little voices, the non verbal cues and so on. I often feel adrift with little to aid me as many of the subjects in which I engage need addressing to the listener and for me to convert what is usually a one on one conversation into a universal piece for all to read as if I was speaking to them alone is painful and quite often a complete failure.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #39
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Based on cognitive principles, it is understandable that, INJs in general have an arduous time communicating. Before communicating, INTJs contend with their Ni by being
    …strongly influenced by a vision of what will be, which may involve an abstract, even vague understanding of complexities that are difficult to explain, not articulating or even being aware of premises or assumptions behind envisioned implications, therefore being able to convey only implications and the final picture.
    As a result, they use their Te in an attempt to articulate by
    expressing thoughts directly, readily critiquing and pointing out what has been left out or not done. Getting to the point efficiently.
    INTPs, and ITPs in general, take the exact opposite approach, which has the same results. Before discussing a matter they use their Ti to:
    define principles, differences and distinctions. Look at inconsistencies and inaccuracies use detached observation which can be misread as dislike or disapproval, and may be quite careful in not expressing thoughts unless illogic and inaccuracy are overwhelming.
    When they do convey their thoughts using their Ne, INTPs will show and appear quite loquacious in discussing:
    …new ideas and possible realities, holding different and conflicting ideas and values in mind at once without articulating them and focusing on inferences and hypotheses.
    In laymen terms, INTJ may be careful in discussing their thoughts, because they may have a vague understanding themselves, while in contrast INTPs will not discuss things that are quite obvious, preferring to maybe not chime in unless they see or hear inconsistencies.

  10. #40
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    "?" pretty much hit the nail on the head. In my personal estimation, part of an INTJ's "individuality" comes from having attempted countless times to communicate what he has in mind, only to be met with smirky aren't-you-forgettings, what-abouts, and you're-just-assumings. Perhaps other INTJs have had different experiences, but I've come to accept that verbal and written communication are nothing more than pastimes with an element of skill, much like any given sport, to cite an obvious example.

    Since the following is anecdotal, I will stick to the first-person:

    It's a bit frustrating; I can't even have meaningful conversations with other NTs. In my experience, XNTPs are always too preoccupied with dissecting the metaphors, allegories, and terms I used to attempt to put into concrete language the miasma that is my internal experience that they are either incapable of or unwilling to see what it is that I'm trying to say. ENTJs I tend to get along with well when I'm in the mood to "extravert" a bit, but they have all of the typical E problems that inhibit communication on the level I should prefer. As a result I've resigned myself to having an entirely personal internal experience and being judged solely on the basis of my Te.

    I find myself having the general experience that Nietzsche described; I've come to realize that to what little extent people do understand what it is you're attempting to communicate, they only solder it into their existing knowledge-slash-experience matrix and make it a part of their thinking, and ultimately I have to wonder to what extent thoughts can actually be communicated between human beings untainted.

    As a result, for the past few months, I've arranged my life such that I mostly do things alone and, when I'm in the mood for a "discussion", much the way another person may be in the mood for a toss of the old pig skin, I arrange lunch, dinner, a few drinks, or some other activity that takes no more than two hours.

    In many ways, though, I must confess that since resigning myself to living in my own company, the feeling is rather liberating, if on the rare occasion lonely.

    (And for those of you clever enough to catch the omission, I have personally known two other INTJs in my life, and they were both woefully underdeveloped, bitter little people.)
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

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