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  1. #21
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Actually, somewhat on that note, I'm curious: do INTPs tend to have difficulty putting their thoughts into words? ENTPs seem to have nooooooo problem with this, but I've been chalking it up to the E more than anything else.
    It's not always as easy as you think (or it looks) for us. Each time I have to fight a battle against a loud voice inside me that speaks for the part of me that's pre-empted the misunderstanding, the objections, the tediously blockheaded and slow process of having to repeat and rephrase a dozen times before people stop attacking me for their half-assed interpretation of what I said, before they actually get what I said, and then oppose it reflexively because it's unfamiliar or implies changes. This part of me says very loudly: "What's the point?"

    But in the end, I tend to err on the side of talkativeness if it's something I consider important, because of the basic tenet of preferring to light a candle than curse the darkness... and a lot of what I come out with is with the aim of finding clarity or bringing it either to myself or others or just situations.

    However it can also happen just as much, that I'll go by the motto: "I'm appearing to agree, because to disagree requires explanations, which I haven't the patience or energy to give", and I'll hold my peace and leave people to find out for themselves the hard way, what I've easily perceived. This has the added bonus of being able to be smug later on
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  2. #22
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    To me anyway INTPs are kind of known for their clarity in expressing their thoughts in huge contrast with INTJs. I actually associate the whole thing with Einstein (INTP) and Bohr (INTJ), they really show what I mean, Einstein by far being the better to express himself. Bohr on the other hand was a supposedly famous bad speaker.

  3. #23
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    I really like that snippet Usehername posted. I've pretty much given up on attempting to explain my theories and plans verbally and prefer to let my accomplishments speak for me. I have told friends to "judge me by my works." My ENTP friend, being a rather strong E, remains pretty much incapable of seeing beyond the surface and continues to regard me as reasonably intelligent but rigid and close-minded. However, as I keep pulling off things that people warn me are difficult, almost impossible, etc., he is beginning to begrudgingly concede that there may be some validity to my way of thinking.

    I have to admit, although I grow more tolerant of the reality with age, it still drives me INSANE when people judge me based upon Te, my SECONDARY function. Ni is anything but rigid, dammit!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    To me anyway INTPs are kind of known for their clarity in expressing their thoughts in huge contrast with INTJs. I actually associate the whole thing with Einstein (INTP) and Bohr (INTJ), they really show what I mean, Einstein by far being the better to express himself. Bohr on the other hand was a supposedly famous bad speaker.
    Yes... I tend to find with INTJ's that rather than introduce the idea from scratch and explain it through, they tend to introduce it nearer to the end, assuming everyone agrees with all the 'given' precepts that it's built on, and try to shoe-horn it through by brushing aside or declaring irrelevant the objections people raise.

    They get quite stressed and annoyed when people want to take the idea back to before the 'given' at the start, and point out that the foundations of the idea may be wonky, and start impatiently spewing out belated qualifiers - "No, I didn't mean that I meant -" or "No I was coming at it from the other angle - " as if they have a right to be annoyed that the world wasn't psychic enough to guess the omitted first part of their explanation, and blame others, call them stupid etc, for this.

    Actually, come to think of it, this was quite well demonstrated in Economica's "What type are you?" thread... heheh

    With INTP's, I don't have so much trouble once you can actually persuade them to TELL you the idea. They usually do it quite clearly and explain along the way the various assumptions and why they're using them. They tend to be more aware, in my experience, that the other person can't read their mind and doesn't necessarily start off from a point of having the same intentions and objectives. If the INTP has an objective behind their idea, they'll explain it and why it's good, rather than assume everyone agrees with it to begin with.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  5. #25
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yes... I tend to find with INTJ's that rather than introduce the idea from scratch and explain it through, they tend to introduce it nearer to the end, assuming everyone agrees with all the 'given' precepts that it's built on, and try to shoe-horn it through by brushing aside or declaring irrelevant the objections people raise.

    They get quite stressed and annoyed when people want to take the idea back to before the 'given' at the start, and point out that the foundations of the idea may be wonky, and start impatiently spewing out belated qualifiers - "No, I didn't mean that I meant -" or "No I was coming at it from the other angle - " as if they have a right to be annoyed that the world wasn't psychic enough to guess the omitted first part of their explanation, and blame others, call them stupid etc, for this.

    Actually, come to think of it, this was quite well demonstrated in Economica's "What type are you?" thread... heheh

    With INTP's, I don't have so much trouble once you can actually persuade them to TELL you the idea. They usually do it quite clearly and explain along the way the various assumptions and why they're using them. They tend to be more aware, in my experience, that the other person can't read their mind and doesn't necessarily start off from a point of having the same intentions and objectives. If the INTP has an objective behind their idea, they'll explain it and why it's good, rather than assume everyone agrees with it to begin with.
    yeah, i've noticed this with myself, unfortunately.


    Why, btw, is this thread entitled with INTPs when really, we are trying to discuss the INTJ? I almost didn't read it b/c it was INTP and I didn't know anything about that.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  6. #26
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Why, btw, is this thread entitled with INTPs when really, we are trying to discuss the INTJ? I almost didn't read it b/c it was INTP and I didn't know anything about that.
    Ask Mycroft. Maybe PM him.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Why, btw, is this thread entitled with INTPs when really, we are trying to discuss the INTJ? I almost didn't read it b/c it was INTP and I didn't know anything about that.
    You're right.

    Better?

    (I'm the one that actually moved Mycroft's post here and opened up the thread, and I took the title from his post... so I figure i have dibs on renaming it!)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Perhaps INTPs may struggle to communicate well because they think in wholes and must express in parts so it's like drip feeding an ocean sometimes. I'm guessing it's similar for all NTs, it's just that it occurs at different stages in their thinking/ communication.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #29
    Senior Member Gen's Avatar
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    I don't have trouble with wordiness, I have trouble with giving enough detail. I can say or write the very core of my thought, thinking that any more is redundant and obvious, just to find that no one really got my point. They usually understood what I said, but not the whole extent of it.

    I also have a hard time with vocabulary and picking the right word. Part of it is knowing a lot of words but forgetting many of them. It's like understanding a foreign language but not being able to speak it.

    Then theres the fact that I'm hesitant to say much of anything because in the past a mis-step in wording or a premature revelation of some sort has resulted in serious conflict that I'd like to avoid.

    I take in information - and then I horde it.

  10. #30
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    You're right.

    Better?

    (I'm the one that actually moved Mycroft's post here and opened up the thread, and I took the title from his post... so I figure i have dibs on renaming it!)
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

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