[INTP] How to properly communicate with the other types?

[Obsidius]

Hey, I'm an INTP and have significant difficulty in relating to those outside of the rational types. For example: when I talk to my INTJ or INTP friends in real life, I can be completely unfiltered and they can usually immediately grasp what I have to say without getting offended and usually without gleaning unintended double meanings from my words.

However, when I speak to perhaps one of my ENFP or INFJ friends, it's almost as though I'm treading on a minefield. This is not to say that they're stupid, they're not by any means, what I meant is that it's as though they see things in my words that I don't intend. Is there really any way to avoid this as an NT? Does anyone else frequently encounter this issue?

 

[Gone]

More information please.
Right now I can only make assumptions.
It seems as you don't trust your feeling friends (enough). You seem uncomfortable talking to them. You feel you have to pussyfoot around them because they're so sensitive and will blow up in your face if you slip. There's fear they will abandon you if you fuck up. That will likely make you lose your ability to communicate clearly because you will formulate your thoughts in a more ... cautious and complicated way. In a way that is much easier to misinterpret, you know? You won't tell what you really mean anymore but what you believe they want to hear. It's a downward spiral, and trust is the key. Can you trust them to not stop being your friend if you behave stupid or offensive sometimes - if it's unintentional? What happens when they see things in your words you didn't intend? Do they get mad at you? Do they tell you or do they just send you a death stare or leave? Do they sense your intention or not?

If you want to learn how to be clear and (feeler-)friendly at the same time, you need that form of trust as a foundation. Do they know you want to improve your way of communication? If not, tell them, ask them for help, ask them to tell you when you're being offensive and maybe if they see a better way to handle the situation. That will need a lot of humility, and the will to learn, to improve. Dedication. "My intentions are good" is not a get out of jail free card. Don't overuse the patience of your friends. Don't make them repeat themselves.

 

[Obfuscate]

More information please.
Right now I can only make assumptions.
It seems as you don't trust your feeling friends (enough). You seem uncomfortable talking to them. You feel you have to pussyfoot around them because they're so sensitive and will blow up in your face if you slip. There's fear they will abandon you if you fuck up. That will likely make you lose your ability to communicate clearly because you will formulate your thoughts in a more ... cautious and complicated way. In a way that is much easier to misinterpret, you know? You won't tell what you really mean anymore but what you believe they want to hear. It's a downward spiral, and trust is the key. Can you trust them to not stop being your friend if you behave stupid or offensive sometimes - if it's unintentional? What happens when they see things in your words you didn't intend? Do they get mad at you? Do they tell you or do they just send you a death stare or leave? Do they sense your intention or not?

If you want to learn how to be clear and (feeler-)friendly at the same time, you need that form of trust as a foundation. Do they know you want to improve your way of communication? If not, tell them, ask them for help, ask them to tell you when you're being offensive and maybe if they see a better way to handle the situation. That will need a lot of humility, and the will to learn, to improve. Dedication. "My intentions are good" is not a get out of jail free card. Don't overuse the patience of your friends. Don't make them repeat themselves.

to be fair, some xxFx types Are like a minefield... i find i am able to navigate it by regulating my wording, but i really can't be myself until they get used to me...

 

[Gone]

to be fair, some xxFx types Are like a minefield... i find i am able to navigate it by regulating my wording, but i really can't be myself until they get used to me...

Of course. Therefore my question if he can trust them to discern between being intentionally and unintentionally mean and act accordingly^^ If they really ARE such a minefield, he better find someone else to "practice" on.

 

[ceecee]

However, when I speak to perhaps one of my ENFP or INFJ friends, it's almost as though I'm treading on a minefield. This is not to say that they're stupid, they're not by any means, what I meant is that it's as though they see things in my words that I don't intend. Is there really any way to avoid this as an NT? Does anyone else frequently encounter this issue?

No, there really isn't any way to avoid this as an NT. Types communicate differently, you will need to practice until you are better at it. Perhaps giving the NF's a heads up on your lack of communication skills (because that is how they hear it) is a good idea. You never know, one of them may even be able to help you with your issue.

 

[undique]

A while back I got curious and did a "poll" on FB to see what MBTI types my friends were. Almost exclusively, my female friends were ENFPs or INFJs. I have some theories as to why... I think I like how ENFPs are charismatic and care about stuff in a way I feel mostly incapable of. I like their granola hippy/ motivated activist shtick and it's fun and inspiring to be around even if it's not really who I am. And as for INFJs, well, these make up the majority of my close female friends. And while they are incredibly encouraging, supportive, kind, fascinating people, they are also complete nutballs. Communicating with INTJs IS like walking through a minefield. I am a low conflict person, but arguing with an INFJ is like opening the floodgates of a convoluted emotional mess the likes of which I have never seen. They are hyper sensitive, rationally irrational (if that makes any sense) and will hold grudges until the end of time. My roommate is a male ENFJ and he is still talking about the sweat-stain from a piece of cheese I left on the counter three months ago. The F and the J are an odd combination because it means they are basing their opinions mostly off of what they feel and, because of the J, completely sure that they are right and often unwilling to be convinced otherwise, even with every piece of contrary evidence provided. I love my roommate and he is one of my dearest friends, but he is also one of the most insufferably infuriating people I have ever met. We will end up in circular debates over incredibly dumb things that can easily be proven with Google (for example, whether boxing is more dangerous than UFC) and, even when he knows he is wrong, he will keep harping that his preconceived notion must be correct because it just "feels like it makes more sense to him." (God help me. It's a good thing it's a big apartment.) Communication with my NFJ friends really comes down to choosing my battles and not trying to make points on a theoretical level. I try to appreciate them for being the strange, fragile creatures that they are. I don’t like to get in arguments with people about their emotions. When an INFJ friend feels “wounded” by my directness or lack of sensitivity about an issue, I just apologize, validate their feelings and move the hell on. There’s nothing else you can really do if you want to maintain the peace.


On the other hand, my boyfriend is an ENTJ and it took us about six months to figure out how to communicate with each other. But because we’re both NTs, we are both pretty direct and rational about what we need. For example, he will tell me how it drives him nuts when I start going on a long explanation of a theoretical issue and use a long logic train with tons of connected examples and anecdotes to prove my point (total INTP thing.) He likes when I just tell him what I think directly and then explain after. He believes a lot of people who are more emotional need to be “eased into” things they may not agree with and people waste a lot of time with the whole “okay, but really, hear me out” part of a argument before actually making their point. We’ve agreed that we’re both reasonable enough people to hear the main point first, then the explanation after, without immediately having a negative reaction. So there’s an example of how we’ve learned to communicate with each other. He also acknowledges my need to hear words vs. actions, so he will go out of his way to reassure me about things or compliment me even when it doesn’t come naturally or he feels awkward doing it. He’s a verbal communicator whereas I struggle and end up shutting down when I try to communicate verbally. So sometimes if it’s something serious we need to talk about or at all related to feelings, I’ll write it all out in a message and then he will set aside a time to call me so he can verbally respond to what I’ve written. It seems silly, but it allows us both to process and communicate in ways that make us both comfortable and we avoid a lot of conflict and confusion that way.


The truth is, most people don’t analyze their communication that much. I think one of the strengths of the NTP is that we can modify our approach to different people accordingly, even if they arent aware that’s what we are doing. I just try to accept people for what they are and meet them on their level, even when I think they are being irrational or ridiculous. If I wasn’t able to do that, my close friends, my roommate and my boyfriend would all drive me totally insane.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

@ Obsidius
I lean towards thinking that there isn't too much you can do except be honest and be yourself. Perhaps you could tell your NF friends that you tend to be unfiltered, but you hope they will trust your intentions are good. I think 'trust' is an important component to all of this.

I'm very much an NF, and I do read a lot of subtext in communication in part because the majority of mental processing is likely subconscious. If you study psychoanalytic theory, there is a lot of information about subconscious processing and intentions that can be in conflict with the conscious mind. The tendency to read subtext doesn't necessarily mean one is always accurate, so your NF friends are responsible to own up to the fact that their subtle impressions can be mistaken. It takes a greater investment in knowing a person to accurately read subtext than it does to accurately read their intentional communication. I also think that your NF friends don't have enough experience communicating with NTs because there is a difference in subtext between different types of people. It sounds like they are listening to you as though you are another NF. Also, female communication is much more heavy laden with subtext than male communication, so if gender is playing a role here, then that would exaggerate the issue further.

For acquaintance and friendship level communication I often prefer NT communication because I am calibrated to it and there actually is less subtext, so I find it to be a relief. When people are generally honest and authentic, there is more meaning in their intentional communication - even when it is in conflict with their subtext, it is still the intended idea and feeling they choose to convey. There is respect and trust when accepting the communication that is being offered and not looking into it any deeper than that.

Edit: I will also add that the inclination to accurately read subtext makes a person much more tolerant of harsh communication in some contexts. I know a few NT who use startlingly abrupt communication that often offends people, but it doesn't bother me much because I care about a holistic view of what they are saying. My mentor berated me when she found out I bought my instrument sight-unseen. She told me that everyone knows they send out the worse ones, so you have to go in person to choose your instrument. Well, I had already spent my life savings and more, so I cried when I hung up the phone, but then I comprehended her subtext. She was saying that she wanted me to have the best instrument possible, she felt that is what I deserved, and so she was frustrated that such a simple step was overlooked, and may have even felt partly responsible for not communicating that clearly beforehand, so she was sure to say it clearly now. Also, it still was a beautiful instrument and in the end - close enough for jazz.

The environments that DO have sickening subtext tend to consist of internal power struggles, arrogance and/or self-righteousness, but with a social requirement of keeping up appearances. Churches are generally dripping with subtext, and so is academia. I can feel the subtext oozing out of the walls in academic departments, so can't stand it. Individuals who have no power agenda, but are completely unfiltered are the opposite for me - they are like a glass of clear water, and so I tolerate *extremely* rough communication (more extreme than the example I gave) when the subtext is honest and coherent.

 

[evilrubberduckie]

...

There is this called a filter. I know. Disgusting thing. It took me years to realise I need one and then years to learn how to opperate it. What helps is imagining yourself in the big bang theory sitcom and thinking " Would Sheldon say this?" If you think sheldon would say that. Dont say it and try to phrase it differently

 

[entropie]

However, when I speak to perhaps one of my ENFP or INFJ friends, it's almost as though I'm treading on a minefield. This is not to say that they're stupid, they're not by any means, what I meant is that it's as though they see things in my words that I don't intend. Is there really any way to avoid this as an NT? Does anyone else frequently encounter this issue?

A problem very well known to most NTs probably. It's always possibile that I just understood those situations wrongly but its impossible for me to logically see how or why. I usually am able to overplay those moments with charme. Charme is a mighty weapon. But if charme doesnt help or you dont have it, one hint of advice: dont explain yourself and dont try to discuss. Let them rant, if they are upset and let them talk and if they are finished say that you didnt mean to upset them. Make your apology as personal as possible. Most times that should suffice, if not run

 

[Fidelia]

I think a lot of intps either avoid dealing with people altogether, are abrasively blunt, or over accommodate to the other person's preference to avoid hassle. I think it's possible to be quite authentic and honest without being brutal if having an authentic relationship matters.

The intp I know best has made huge efforts in that way. He has made it a priority to see what matters most to different sorts of his closest friends and customize a bit for them. I'm sure with me there are things he thinks but chooses not to verbalize. However, we've also managed to talk some about our varying communication needs as well as misunderstandings that have come up, and it has built a lot of trust for me towards him that if I bring something up, we'll make it safely to the other side.

On two occasions, he's brought up things I've done that have bothered him, and in a strange sort of way, that too built some trust in my mind that he wasn't just pretending things were okay when they were not and that he trusted me to respond openly. I know he values his internal privacy and also doesn't want to hurt my feelings, so there's probably stuff I'm not aware of, but I think he does try to be honest with me as much as possible.

Probably as an infj, what's helped me most is the willingness to explain or explore how he operates, as I get much less panicked or upset when I have context and information to work with. As a result, I don't imagine that it's the end of our friendship or that he's upset when he disappears for a day or two after communicating every day. I still get a bit uncomfortable if the pattern of our communication inexplicably changes, but usually I'm fine with how things are as long as I feel like I'm in the loop.

With nfjs, they get a bit hurt or hovery when not granted enough information, but if they understand the why of how something works, they are actually pretty flexible. I think that's maybe hard for intps to get used to, but if they value the connection and like some space, but dislike emotional kerfuffle, giving even insignificant details for the nfj to hold onto allows them to feel like they have a place in your world and that you value them.

For me, I also find it easier to give more space if I know that they will eventually make it a priority to reconnect with me. As long as I know that I matter to the other person, I am willing to adapt to their favoured mode of interacting much more easily.

Even if something isn't my favourite, I can deal with it if the other person is keeping my needs in mind from time to time as well. I'd actually prefer for them to be genuinely themselves and occasionally hurt my feelings, rather than try to accommodate for me and find the relationship rather taxing or unpleasant as a result.

I don't know if this is true of all nfjs, but for me, I mostly get hurt when I am seeking reassurance or practical information and it FEELS like it is being withheld.

In any case, hopefully this gives you something to work with....

 

[Obsidius]

More information please.
Right now I can only make assumptions.
It seems as you don't trust your feeling friends (enough). You seem uncomfortable talking to them. You feel you have to pussyfoot around them because they're so sensitive and will blow up in your face if you slip. There's fear they will abandon you if you fuck up. That will likely make you lose your ability to communicate clearly because you will formulate your thoughts in a more ... cautious and complicated way. In a way that is much easier to misinterpret, you know? You won't tell what you really mean anymore but what you believe they want to hear. It's a downward spiral, and trust is the key. Can you trust them to not stop being your friend if you behave stupid or offensive sometimes - if it's unintentional? What happens when they see things in your words you didn't intend? Do they get mad at you? Do they tell you or do they just send you a death stare or leave? Do they sense your intention or not?

If you want to learn how to be clear and (feeler-)friendly at the same time, you need that form of trust as a foundation. Do they know you want to improve your way of communication? If not, tell them, ask them for help, ask them to tell you when you're being offensive and maybe if they see a better way to handle the situation. That will need a lot of humility, and the will to learn, to improve. Dedication. "My intentions are good" is not a get out of jail free card. Don't overuse the patience of your friends. Don't make them repeat themselves.

This is interesting, I guess just using plain and honest speech may be the best way. Perhaps then I can really decide if they ought to be my friends after all. I like the idea of asking them to improve myself though, I'll probably take that route first. Thanks for the response

 

[Obsidius]

[MENTION=14857]labyrinthine[/MENTION] Interesting explanation, I didn't actually think about the psychoanalytic aspect of it until now. Perhaps, as other have suggested, candid speech is the best way to do this, but framed in a way which is plain and honest to avoid misinterpretations.

 

[Obsidius]

[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] I'll definitely keep all these things in mind when talking to the INFJ female I know, god INFJs are complex, I guess that's what makes them so interesting though. Thanks for the response