mwv6r
New member
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2008
- Messages
- 208
- MBTI Type
- INFJ
- Enneagram
- 4w5
I hope I don't offend any INTPs on this thread. I sincerely love INTPs -- their sense of humor and their take on the world completely charms me and I consider my INTP friendships precious commodities since it's a pretty rare type and I usually find them incredibly funny and insightful. I am just hoping for some insight to shed light on a crazy situation that happened to me last year, that I'm now wondering if I should look at in a new light...
Also, I know this is crazy long. If you make it to the end and still feel like posting, I appreciate it!
So. About a year ago, I experienced a series of concerning incidents with my husband's female employee. My husband had an open-door policy with all his employees, male and female (not anymore, we have clear boundaries in place now to avoid a repeat of this situation in the future). But at the time, he was very friendly and welcoming with everyone, inviting them over to our house, for drinks at our place on the weekends, etc., etc. Noone had really ever abused his friendliness and lack of work/home boundaries before. Until a girl who I'll call Kim began working with him. Kim, in my opinion, began abusing the open-door policy. She'd stop by the house, but instead of just dropping a work-related item off and chatting briefly every once in a while like the other employees did, Kim was coming over frequently and would want to hang out for a while (too long) each time. She also made no effort to form a relationship with me but focused all her attention on my husband. I've struck up a number of friendships with my husband's coworkers of both genders, but each of them would make an effort to get to know me and to connect with me as an individual. Kim never did.
Some background: I'm an INFJ, married to an ESTP. We're in our 30s and have 2 young children. Kim I had no guess for her personality type at the time, other than an NT of some sort based on her being super logical and very intelligent. She's about 10 years younger than me, 15 years younger than my husband, and has a longterm boyfriend who never joins her at any of the social outtings that I've seen her at. She complained on multiple occasions how he never gets out of the house and never goes with her anywhere. So, maybe she's a little lonely...
Anyway, I became increasingly irritated with Kim, especially after I learned from my husband that she had begun dropping by our house sometimes when I wasn't home. I just found it disrespectful and presumptuous since she had no relationship with me to speak of. I told my husband that I didn't want her inside the house anymore when I wasn't home, and to just meet her at the door, and he said I had nothing to worry about and that I can trust him and that he only thinks of her as a friend, but I insisted and he agreed in order to make me feel at ease. Oh, another thing that irritated me about Kim was that within days of being hired, she asked my husband if she could start carpooling to work with him to save gas money. My husband said no because it would have been too complicated since he helps me pick up the kids from daycare sometimes after work. I didn't make an issue of it since he said no anyway, but if he had actually considered carpooling with her, I would have objected because I find her asking her married boss to carpool to and from work every day an inappropriately intimate request in a professional relationship.
A couple of weeks after he agreed to only meet her at our front door from now on instead of inviting her in, my husband and I were out at a bar having drinks with friends when we ran into Kim and her friends. She seemed very eager to hang out with my husband and again barely interacted with me. Already irritated by her actions, I made the interaction brief: I said hello to her, complimented her Halloween costume, listened to her and her friends chit chat with my husband for a couple of minutes, and then I said that I was going to get a beer and left to hang out with our friends. My husband joined me a 5 minutes or so later. Most of my husband's coworkers I would have been more sociable with and interacted with for longer but I didn't want to make an effort with Kim because I didn't want to encourage more intimacy with her given her prior behavior. I was however, technically polite.
Next something strange happened. Kim, who I think may have been pretty intoxicated, came over with her friend to where I was standing at the other side of the bar and tried to confront me. "Boo!" she said to me aggressively (again, it was Halloween and we were all in costumes). "We're still here!" She sounded really angry. Instead of engaging with her I pretended not to notice her and kept talking to my friends. (The bar was loud and crowded and so they didn't notice her there trying to confront me.) When I turned around again she and her friend had given up trying to yell at me or whatever their plan had been. I was glad because I hate public confrontations and this was a way to avoid that by just pretending I didn't see her. I can't read her mind but my guess is that she wanted to hang out with my husband and was very angered that I was in effect blocking that from happening. She wasn't incorrect, I was blocking her from hanging out with my husband, but in my opinion she had been overly forward and invasive and so I didn't feel bad about setting those boundaries.
I told my husband about what happened with her trying to confront me. He was kind of incredulous like, "Why would she do that? It doesn't make sense!" but I was angry at her disrespectfulness toward me and said I didn't want her over at our house at all anymore, I didn't want her in our personal lives at all anymore, and that I wanted him to tone down their at-the-office friendship to keep things strictly professional. He was kind of irritated because being an ESTP, he's very laidback, sociable, and not into rules, but I insisted and he agreed.
After that we had a couple months of calm. Then on Christmas morning, things got crazy. Or crazy at least in my INFJ opinion, maybe NTs would think different? I was in the living room in PJs with the kids just hanging out playing with their new presents. Doorbell rings. It's Kim. Bringing my husband a bottle of champagne on freaking Christmas morning. I was completely livid. I stayed where I was out of sight from her but listened to the interaction. She seemed to be angling for an invitation inside to hang out. My husband was polite and friendly with her but said he was busy with family, and finally she left.
Next came a HUGE fight with my husband. I found it incredibly disrespectful that she would come to our house on Christmas morning, after the antagonistic run-in I already had with her at the bar 2 months earlier. I was furious with him for letting her come to our house. He said even though he let her come to the door, he didn't let her inside and didn't hang out with her, so he felt like he was following "the spirit" of my rule. I insisted on seeing his phone. I respect his privacy and don't look through his phone, but after this chick showed up I felt I needed to make an exception. I sat down and scrolled through the last two months of text messages between them. The text messages were innocent and there was no smoking gun. There were however some interesting patterns on her part: #1) she kept trying to hang out with him outside of work, and he kept politely declining. (I will say, she did try to set up doubledates with us and with her boyfriend, which my husband took to mean she wasn't going after him. I wasn't that generous about her motives given all her other overly invasive behaviors, however. And even if she did just want to be friends with him, I had no interest after her rudeness to me.) #2) she was more emotive than he was. She'd sometimes write long paragraphs about this or that, how her vacation went (and how she was drunk almost the whole time and had a days long hangover afterwards -- I think there could be some alcoholism going on which maybe exacerbated this situation...), how she was sick and not feeling well, etc., and he would give abrupt replies back like "sorry to hear that," "that's nice," etc. The most interesting set of texts started on Christmas Eve. She began asking that afternoon if she could come over to our house to give him a Christmas present. He said, "Can you just leave it on my desk at work?" (he was already on Christmas vacation until after New Years). She said no, she really wanted him to have it before New Years. He said, "I'm busy with family the next couple of days, can I get it from you after that?" Again she insisted that she really really wanted him to have it before she left on her vacation and could she please please drop it by. Finally he agreed and said she could come over on Christmas morning but that it would have to be quick.
Seeing that his story checked out I became a little less irritated with him but was still furious with her and what I considered her bizarre behavior. I can't imagine ever, ever dropping by my married boss's house on Christmas morning, especially if I had previously had a dramatic run-in with my boss's wife. And by the way, I can't imagine ever having a dramatic run-in with my boss's wife, because who the hell does that???
So my interpretation was: Kim, who as I mentioned above comes across as highly intelligent, became angered that I had put a stop to her and my husband's friendship outside of work. To get back at me, she came up with an excuse (champagne for New Years) in order to be able to stop by our home on Christmas morning, knowing that my husband wouldn't view that as a big deal, but that I would. I felt that she did it specifically to upset me. And I was angry and admittedly kind of impressed by how well her plan had worked.
My husband worked hard to help get Kim promoted out of his branch soon after New Years. I got the impression he was relieved to get her out of there for one because he knew I couldn't stand her but I also got the impression that he seemed to find her emotionally exhausting -- that she seemed to view them as closer friends than they really were and that she was still asking to hang out or go on doubledates after work.
Now it's about a year later. This past weekend my husband and I were hanging out with some of his coworkers and their spouses at an after-work social. Everything was going well, when suddenly in walks Kim, who we hadn't expected to be there. My take on Kim had been that she was a manipulative narcissist. When she walked in and saw me there though, she got this pained expression on her face. Like she felt sad. I almost felt sorry for her. She avoided us all night, and then at the end she came over to our table and said "Hi how are you doing?" specifically to me. I politely said, "Hi, good, how are you doing?" but didn't continue the conversation with her any further (even feeling a little bad for her, I wasn't about to open the door to let this chick back into our lives given prior events). She stood awkwardly for a minute and then left, still looking kind of downtrodden and sad.
The weird, sad look on her face has me wondering if I interpreted this situation correctly. I started thinking back to things I'd observed her saying and doing back before I put my food down about her not being part of our personal lives. I started thinking that she almost had an INTP vibe in those interactions. (Very intelligent, logical, quiet, offbeat...) Suddenly I remembered how a very close INTP female friend of mine, who often sadly tells me about how her beloved best guy friend from college can hardly ever hang out with her anymore because his wife doesn't like her. (However, I do have to wonder now, how my INTP friend interacted with his wife that could have exacerbated this. I love my friend but she can be pretty socially awkward, and I wonder if she might have unintentionally offended her friend's wife, or maybe made no attempt to build a relationship with her, etc.)
Is it possible that Kim is an INTP with poor social skills (possibly worsened by excessive alcohol use?). It's not like I want to forgive her and invite her back into our lives because I do think many of her behaviors were pretty ridiculous, but I'm just curious if any of this description rings true as possibly a poorly developed INTP personality? Viewing her in that light is the first time I've been able to humanize her instead of viewing her as some kind of Machiavellian villain. Or, maybe she really is just a narcissist / bad person and my first interpretation was correct? Maybe both at the same time (a covert narcissist INTP)?
I don't know what to think about it all but I was curious to hear some NT perspectives....
Thanks for reading, if you made it to the end!
Also, I know this is crazy long. If you make it to the end and still feel like posting, I appreciate it!
So. About a year ago, I experienced a series of concerning incidents with my husband's female employee. My husband had an open-door policy with all his employees, male and female (not anymore, we have clear boundaries in place now to avoid a repeat of this situation in the future). But at the time, he was very friendly and welcoming with everyone, inviting them over to our house, for drinks at our place on the weekends, etc., etc. Noone had really ever abused his friendliness and lack of work/home boundaries before. Until a girl who I'll call Kim began working with him. Kim, in my opinion, began abusing the open-door policy. She'd stop by the house, but instead of just dropping a work-related item off and chatting briefly every once in a while like the other employees did, Kim was coming over frequently and would want to hang out for a while (too long) each time. She also made no effort to form a relationship with me but focused all her attention on my husband. I've struck up a number of friendships with my husband's coworkers of both genders, but each of them would make an effort to get to know me and to connect with me as an individual. Kim never did.
Some background: I'm an INFJ, married to an ESTP. We're in our 30s and have 2 young children. Kim I had no guess for her personality type at the time, other than an NT of some sort based on her being super logical and very intelligent. She's about 10 years younger than me, 15 years younger than my husband, and has a longterm boyfriend who never joins her at any of the social outtings that I've seen her at. She complained on multiple occasions how he never gets out of the house and never goes with her anywhere. So, maybe she's a little lonely...
Anyway, I became increasingly irritated with Kim, especially after I learned from my husband that she had begun dropping by our house sometimes when I wasn't home. I just found it disrespectful and presumptuous since she had no relationship with me to speak of. I told my husband that I didn't want her inside the house anymore when I wasn't home, and to just meet her at the door, and he said I had nothing to worry about and that I can trust him and that he only thinks of her as a friend, but I insisted and he agreed in order to make me feel at ease. Oh, another thing that irritated me about Kim was that within days of being hired, she asked my husband if she could start carpooling to work with him to save gas money. My husband said no because it would have been too complicated since he helps me pick up the kids from daycare sometimes after work. I didn't make an issue of it since he said no anyway, but if he had actually considered carpooling with her, I would have objected because I find her asking her married boss to carpool to and from work every day an inappropriately intimate request in a professional relationship.
A couple of weeks after he agreed to only meet her at our front door from now on instead of inviting her in, my husband and I were out at a bar having drinks with friends when we ran into Kim and her friends. She seemed very eager to hang out with my husband and again barely interacted with me. Already irritated by her actions, I made the interaction brief: I said hello to her, complimented her Halloween costume, listened to her and her friends chit chat with my husband for a couple of minutes, and then I said that I was going to get a beer and left to hang out with our friends. My husband joined me a 5 minutes or so later. Most of my husband's coworkers I would have been more sociable with and interacted with for longer but I didn't want to make an effort with Kim because I didn't want to encourage more intimacy with her given her prior behavior. I was however, technically polite.
Next something strange happened. Kim, who I think may have been pretty intoxicated, came over with her friend to where I was standing at the other side of the bar and tried to confront me. "Boo!" she said to me aggressively (again, it was Halloween and we were all in costumes). "We're still here!" She sounded really angry. Instead of engaging with her I pretended not to notice her and kept talking to my friends. (The bar was loud and crowded and so they didn't notice her there trying to confront me.) When I turned around again she and her friend had given up trying to yell at me or whatever their plan had been. I was glad because I hate public confrontations and this was a way to avoid that by just pretending I didn't see her. I can't read her mind but my guess is that she wanted to hang out with my husband and was very angered that I was in effect blocking that from happening. She wasn't incorrect, I was blocking her from hanging out with my husband, but in my opinion she had been overly forward and invasive and so I didn't feel bad about setting those boundaries.
I told my husband about what happened with her trying to confront me. He was kind of incredulous like, "Why would she do that? It doesn't make sense!" but I was angry at her disrespectfulness toward me and said I didn't want her over at our house at all anymore, I didn't want her in our personal lives at all anymore, and that I wanted him to tone down their at-the-office friendship to keep things strictly professional. He was kind of irritated because being an ESTP, he's very laidback, sociable, and not into rules, but I insisted and he agreed.
After that we had a couple months of calm. Then on Christmas morning, things got crazy. Or crazy at least in my INFJ opinion, maybe NTs would think different? I was in the living room in PJs with the kids just hanging out playing with their new presents. Doorbell rings. It's Kim. Bringing my husband a bottle of champagne on freaking Christmas morning. I was completely livid. I stayed where I was out of sight from her but listened to the interaction. She seemed to be angling for an invitation inside to hang out. My husband was polite and friendly with her but said he was busy with family, and finally she left.
Next came a HUGE fight with my husband. I found it incredibly disrespectful that she would come to our house on Christmas morning, after the antagonistic run-in I already had with her at the bar 2 months earlier. I was furious with him for letting her come to our house. He said even though he let her come to the door, he didn't let her inside and didn't hang out with her, so he felt like he was following "the spirit" of my rule. I insisted on seeing his phone. I respect his privacy and don't look through his phone, but after this chick showed up I felt I needed to make an exception. I sat down and scrolled through the last two months of text messages between them. The text messages were innocent and there was no smoking gun. There were however some interesting patterns on her part: #1) she kept trying to hang out with him outside of work, and he kept politely declining. (I will say, she did try to set up doubledates with us and with her boyfriend, which my husband took to mean she wasn't going after him. I wasn't that generous about her motives given all her other overly invasive behaviors, however. And even if she did just want to be friends with him, I had no interest after her rudeness to me.) #2) she was more emotive than he was. She'd sometimes write long paragraphs about this or that, how her vacation went (and how she was drunk almost the whole time and had a days long hangover afterwards -- I think there could be some alcoholism going on which maybe exacerbated this situation...), how she was sick and not feeling well, etc., and he would give abrupt replies back like "sorry to hear that," "that's nice," etc. The most interesting set of texts started on Christmas Eve. She began asking that afternoon if she could come over to our house to give him a Christmas present. He said, "Can you just leave it on my desk at work?" (he was already on Christmas vacation until after New Years). She said no, she really wanted him to have it before New Years. He said, "I'm busy with family the next couple of days, can I get it from you after that?" Again she insisted that she really really wanted him to have it before she left on her vacation and could she please please drop it by. Finally he agreed and said she could come over on Christmas morning but that it would have to be quick.
Seeing that his story checked out I became a little less irritated with him but was still furious with her and what I considered her bizarre behavior. I can't imagine ever, ever dropping by my married boss's house on Christmas morning, especially if I had previously had a dramatic run-in with my boss's wife. And by the way, I can't imagine ever having a dramatic run-in with my boss's wife, because who the hell does that???
So my interpretation was: Kim, who as I mentioned above comes across as highly intelligent, became angered that I had put a stop to her and my husband's friendship outside of work. To get back at me, she came up with an excuse (champagne for New Years) in order to be able to stop by our home on Christmas morning, knowing that my husband wouldn't view that as a big deal, but that I would. I felt that she did it specifically to upset me. And I was angry and admittedly kind of impressed by how well her plan had worked.
My husband worked hard to help get Kim promoted out of his branch soon after New Years. I got the impression he was relieved to get her out of there for one because he knew I couldn't stand her but I also got the impression that he seemed to find her emotionally exhausting -- that she seemed to view them as closer friends than they really were and that she was still asking to hang out or go on doubledates after work.
Now it's about a year later. This past weekend my husband and I were hanging out with some of his coworkers and their spouses at an after-work social. Everything was going well, when suddenly in walks Kim, who we hadn't expected to be there. My take on Kim had been that she was a manipulative narcissist. When she walked in and saw me there though, she got this pained expression on her face. Like she felt sad. I almost felt sorry for her. She avoided us all night, and then at the end she came over to our table and said "Hi how are you doing?" specifically to me. I politely said, "Hi, good, how are you doing?" but didn't continue the conversation with her any further (even feeling a little bad for her, I wasn't about to open the door to let this chick back into our lives given prior events). She stood awkwardly for a minute and then left, still looking kind of downtrodden and sad.
The weird, sad look on her face has me wondering if I interpreted this situation correctly. I started thinking back to things I'd observed her saying and doing back before I put my food down about her not being part of our personal lives. I started thinking that she almost had an INTP vibe in those interactions. (Very intelligent, logical, quiet, offbeat...) Suddenly I remembered how a very close INTP female friend of mine, who often sadly tells me about how her beloved best guy friend from college can hardly ever hang out with her anymore because his wife doesn't like her. (However, I do have to wonder now, how my INTP friend interacted with his wife that could have exacerbated this. I love my friend but she can be pretty socially awkward, and I wonder if she might have unintentionally offended her friend's wife, or maybe made no attempt to build a relationship with her, etc.)
Is it possible that Kim is an INTP with poor social skills (possibly worsened by excessive alcohol use?). It's not like I want to forgive her and invite her back into our lives because I do think many of her behaviors were pretty ridiculous, but I'm just curious if any of this description rings true as possibly a poorly developed INTP personality? Viewing her in that light is the first time I've been able to humanize her instead of viewing her as some kind of Machiavellian villain. Or, maybe she really is just a narcissist / bad person and my first interpretation was correct? Maybe both at the same time (a covert narcissist INTP)?
I don't know what to think about it all but I was curious to hear some NT perspectives....
Thanks for reading, if you made it to the end!
