[NT] It's so hard to me as a NT to live in the majority S world

[Poki]

^ [MENTION=14857]labyrinthine[/MENTION] I find that framing that as an N vs. S thing is limiting. You end up missing out on making SJ and SP friends who are actually interested in philosophy and abstract thought. Better to frame it as a question of interests -- as you just did -- vs. an S/N communication breakdown.

Edit: You could actually frame it as Ne vs. Ni if you want to. My friend group is kooky and abstract and bizarre and wonderful, and we're predominantly a mix of NPs and SJs. So, lots of Ne jokes.

Or the person starts pidgeon holing people based on topic further propogating the S vs N bias that becomes nothing more then a shallow opinion based on a deep seated feeling propogated as truth supported by corrolation that others who are similiar will follow.

 

[EJCC]

I realized that the generalized nature of my comments would/should come under criticism. It isn't a generalized Sensor/iNtuitive issue, but there is one way a person can understand why someone could frame it that way in their individual context. There are cultural contexts that place much more value on the concrete and observable than the abstract and theoretical for social conversation and exchange. There are a lot of NT "nerds" who have been horribly bullied throughout their lives for not fitting into the social norms. This is often because they are in their own abstract, little world. That feeling of being ostracized and judged you express in response to my post is the feeling a lot of them have lived with throughout their lives. I think it is harder for a Ni-dom to fit into society, and they have to pay a greater cost to conform. There are advantages to conforming that people can certainly justify on many levels.

There is also an issue of specific cultural context. European culture is a lot different from certain parts of American culture from what I understand from others' accounts. I do think that American culture has high conformity pressure to be a consumer that doesn't reflect on self or personal authenticy in multiple instances. There are pockets of culture in which the conversations are mostly limited to shopping opportunities and such, but that isn't meant to impose that onto any one individual. It is an abstraction of reality, a generalized norm that may have absolutely nothing to do with one specific person reading this post.

There is an advantage to being more in touch with the concrete world because you can navigate it more easily in many cases. People can be more successful at work, in their communities, etc. People who are adept at these things may feel their perspective is superior to an abstract loner who struggles to relate. I think that many cultures would find the concrete adept person the "superior" person to the abstract loner, but the second person still has a right to have a voice and be justified being who they are as a person.

So much of this depends on the culture that the Ni-dom is raised in, as you mentioned. But associating that culture with being a Sensor is, again, misleading. A lot of those supposed Sensors who have no interest in abstract conversation and who are ostracizing presences are probably Ns -- including other INFJs like yourself, hard as that may be to believe.

So, again, there doesn't seem to be a good reason to attribute this to S/N when it has significantly more to do with being surrounded by boring people who like boring things.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

^ [MENTION=14857]labyrinthine[/MENTION] I find that framing that as an N vs. S thing is limiting. You end up missing out on making SJ and SP friends who are actually interested in philosophy and abstract thought. Better to frame it as a question of interests -- as you just did -- vs. an S/N communication breakdown.

Edit: You could actually frame it as Ne vs. Ni if you want to. My friend group is kooky and abstract and bizarre and wonderful, and we're predominantly a mix of NPs and SJs. So, lots of Ne jokes.

One could argue that there is greater diversity among Sensor than iNtuitive because there are greater numbers of Sensors in the world.

I actually completely separate the individual from the generalized abstractions. I was trying to defend the OP who in the beginning of the thread was being what I perceived to be ostracized and I'd bet they actually have a point about feeling isolated in their own world. I also don't place objective value judgments on personal differences. Yes, I personally identify with the abstract nerd, but I expect and might even desire that the concrete person feel good about their perspective and even feel superior for it. I suspect many do, and that is their prerogative, but the person in the OP also has their own right to say they feel different and isolated in their context, and it may be because others mostly focus on the concrete.

It's okay for some people to prefer and value one way of being and others to prefer and value another. Objectively they are equivalent. It does feel strange to me that in my own brain I don't think in value judgments on the different ways of being, and yet, I see people respond like I've said some horrific thing. Would it help to say that some iNtuitive are so abstract to be perceived as, and possibly be, mildly insane? David Icke doesn't fit in generally and he is a definite Ni-dom. Is he superior to an intelligent, successful Sensor? And yet, he may have trouble finding people in his local environment who desire a conversation with him. He has a right to be who he is regardless of how outside the norm.

So, if there is a tendency among the generalized population of Sensor to move towards pure focus on the concrete, there is a generalized tendency for iNtuitives to become so abstract to diverge from reality. Which is the criticism? Which is the superior flaw? I don't place an objective value judgment on it.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

So much of this depends on the culture that the Ni-dom is raised in, as you mentioned. But associating that culture with being a Sensor is, again, misleading. A lot of those supposed Sensors who have no interest in abstract conversation and who are ostracizing presences are probably Ns -- including other INFJs like yourself, hard as that may be to believe.

So, again, there doesn't seem to be a good reason to attribute this to S/N when it has significantly more to do with being surrounded by boring people who like boring things.

Perhaps it is worth asking: what is the difference between Sensing and iNtuition?

 

[miss fortune]

[MENTION=14857]labyrinthine[/MENTION]

stereotyping based on type that way only makes the problems worse

sure, EVERYBODY, regardless of type, has trouble fitting in... some of us have had a worse time of it than others whether we are sensors or intuitors... a lot of that boils down to "are we what's expected?" and "are we willing to conform?" and there are plenty of sensors who can answer no to both of those questions and plenty of intuitives who can answer yes and a ton of people of either side of that dichotomy who can answer no to one and yes to the other

the answer isn't to show differences and make two separate camps... it's to realize that we have a hell of a lot more in common than common MBTI texts would lead us to believe and to learn to work with that

I'm not what's expected and I'm not willing to take up interests and hobbies that bore me in order to fit in somewhere... I have, however, learned to carve out my own niche, find my own friends and make things work for me despite not being "who I should be" because I've learned, by this point in my life, that it is possible to do that

 

[Poki]

[MENTION=14857]labyrinthine[/MENTION]

stereotyping based on type that way only makes the problems worse

sure, EVERYBODY, regardless of type, has trouble fitting in... some of us have had a worse time of it than others whether we are sensors or intuitors... a lot of that boils down to "are we what's expected?" and "are we willing to conform?" and there are plenty of sensors who can answer no to both of those questions and plenty of intuitives who can answer yes and a ton of people of either side of that dichotomy who can answer no to one and yes to the other

the answer isn't to show differences and make two separate camps... it's to realize that we have a hell of a lot more in common than common MBTI texts would lead us to believe and to learn to work with that

I'm not what's expected and I'm not willing to take up interests and hobbies that bore me in order to fit in somewhere... I have, however, learned to carve out my own niche, find my own friends and make things work for me despite not being "who I should be" because I've learned, by this point in my life, that it is possible to do that

I was the computer nerd/smart kid who slept in class and into fixing/rebuilding cars and martial arts in middle school and high school. I fit in everywhere and nowhere at the same time.

 

[EJCC]

It's okay for some people to prefer and value one way of being and others to prefer and value another. Objectively they are equivalent. It does feel strange to me that in my own brain I don't think in value judgments on the different ways of being, and yet, I see people respond like I've said some horrific thing. Would it help to say that some iNtuitive are so abstract to be perceived as, and possibly be, mildly insane? David Icke doesn't fit in generally and he is a definite Ni-dom. Is he superior to an intelligent, successful Sensor? And yet, he may have trouble finding people in his local environment who desire a conversation with him. He has a right to be who he is regardless of how outside the norm.

My responses have been less about value judgment and more about the fact that I don't think the philosophy you were describing is either logical or useful. While it could make sense as a defense of the OP, it would be a typist defense of the OP. Because the idea that poor, isolated, lonely iNtuitives are victimized by a soulless and boring S culture is in itself a typist idea -- an idea that [MENTION=1180]miss fortune[/MENTION] and I have been trying to combat for years, on this forum. It makes Sensors into a scapegoat when the actual problems in question are probably, again, what you were describing regarding culture and situation.

Perhaps it is worth asking: what is the difference between Sensing and iNtuition?

Whether you prioritize either Se or Si in your function stack, instead of either Ne or Ni.

I am a firm believer in everyone's ability to utilize both sensing and intuition in their everyday lives. I am extremely Ne, and respond well to Ne, but am nonetheless a predominantly precedent-based thinker and therefore prioritize Si.

 

[miss fortune]

I was the computer nerd/smart kid who slept in class and into fixing/rebuilding cars and martial arts in middle school and high school. I fit in everywhere and nowhere at the same time.

yeah... I was a split between wild child and overachiever at the same time... I could hang out with any group and be welcome but never really ran into a group like myself

 

[Poki]

Perhaps it is worth asking: what is the difference between Sensing and iNtuition?

Lets use me and my dad...ISTP and INTJ. When we talk we are VERY conceptual people. We talk heavily about concepts whether its about abstract things or the physical world. Do to my stronger Se side i have a bigger tendency to merge the 2 together while due to his inferior Se he has more of a tendency to follow through on conceptual with a larger disconnect from action/reality/etc. We are both Se and Ni. He is just stronger Ni and me Se.

Now our Ti/Fe and Te/Fi are NIGHT and day difference even though we are both T.

Ne sits at a much more shallow conceptual level by default. Experience over in depth. They all have good and bad. Plus different levels of experience and enlightenment based on environment and time used.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Echoes of what I saw at wrongplanet forums. Neurotypicals are the cause of all autistics' problems and if only they better understood autistics, everyone would be happy.

At some point, you just have to acknowledge you were dealt a shitty hand, own your shit, and take some responsibility and initiative. That doesn't make it easier, of course.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Lets use me and my dad...ISTP and INTJ. When we talk we are VERY conceptual people. We talk heavily about concepts whether its about abstract things or the physical world. Do to my stronger Se side i have a bigger tendency to merge the 2 together while due to his inferior Se he has more of a tendency to follow through on conceptual with a larger disconnect from action/reality/etc. We are both Se and Ni. He is just stronger Ni and me Se.

Now our Ti/Fe and Te/Fi are NIGHT and day difference even though we are both T.

Ne sits at a much more shallow conceptual level by default. Experience over in depth. They all have good and bad. Plus different levels of experience and enlightenment based on environment and time used.

You should hear my conversations with ESxJ dad. Very often sequeing into the abstract, conceptual and impossible/improbable. It's like a Ne party.

 

[Poki]

yeah... I was a split between wild child and overachiever at the same time... I could hang out with any group and be welcome but never really ran into a group like myself

That probably where a preference towards extroversion causes you to be more social yet compartmentalized and my preference towards introversion caused me to more isolate myself.

 

[Poki]

You should hear my conversations with ESxJ dad. Very often sequeing into the abstract, conceptual and impossible/improbable. It's like a Ne party.

Yes, me and Ne becomes more like...lets MAKE it possible or atleast as close as we can. Se can just be like "RUN!!!!!" in the S direction.

 

[miss fortune]

That probably where a preference towards extroversion causes you to be more social yet compartmentalized and my preference towards introversion caused me to more isolate myself.

<- the queen of compartmentalization


and my dad is an INTP... we analyze things when we chat together like a couple of good TPs

 

[magpie]

I realized that the generalized nature of my comments would/should come under criticism. It isn't a generalized Sensor/iNtuitive issue, but there is one way a person can understand why someone could frame it that way in their individual context. There are cultural contexts that place much more value on the concrete and observable than the abstract and theoretical for social conversation and exchange. There are a lot of NT "nerds" who have been horribly bullied throughout their lives for not fitting into the social norms. This is often because they are in their own abstract, little world. That feeling of being ostracized and judged you express in response to my post is the feeling a lot of them have lived with throughout their lives. I think it is harder for a Ni-dom to fit into society, and they have to pay a greater cost to conform. There are advantages to conforming that people can certainly justify on many levels.

There is also an issue of specific cultural context. European culture is a lot different from certain parts of American culture from what I understand from others' accounts. I do think that American culture has high conformity pressure to be a consumer that doesn't reflect on self or personal authenticy in multiple instances. There are pockets of culture in which the conversations are mostly limited to shopping opportunities and such, but that isn't meant to impose that onto any one individual. It is an abstraction of reality, a generalized norm that may have absolutely nothing to do with one specific person reading this post.

There is an advantage to being more in touch with the concrete world because you can navigate it more easily in many cases. People can be more successful at work, in their communities, etc. People who are adept at these things may feel their perspective is superior to an abstract loner who struggles to relate. I think that many cultures would find the concrete adept person the "superior" person to the abstract loner, but the second person still has a right to have a voice and be justified being who they are as a person.

Do you feel like you don't fit into society? Were you bullied and ostracized? I'm asking because I want to hear your experiences and also you seem to want acknowledgement based off what you've written in your posts here.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Lets use me and my dad...ISTP and INTJ. When we talk we are VERY conceptual people. We talk heavily about concepts whether its about abstract things or the physical world. Do to my stronger Se side i have a bigger tendency to merge the 2 together while due to his inferior Se he has more of a tendency to follow through on conceptual with a larger disconnect from action/reality/etc. We are both Se and Ni. He is just stronger Ni and me Se.

Now our Ti/Fe and Te/Fi are NIGHT and day difference even though we are both T.

Ne sits at a much more shallow conceptual level by default. Experience over in depth. They all have good and bad. Plus different levels of experience and enlightenment based on environment and time used.

I would actually expect that, and I realize the Nassim Haramein reference in contrast to discussion about yard work was a big mistake on my part. I didn't mean to imply the intelligence differential, but he was the first one who came to my mind for someone really abstract, and actually rejected by his discipline in academia. I don't think there is any intelligence differential between S and N, and that the medical field and scientific research tends to benefit from Sensor based intelligence. I think most of my colleagues in classical music are Sensor and that those cognitive styles benefit the skills required. At the risk of making another generalization, IS-Ps do actually seem really similar to iNtuitives and can be moreso than someone whose dominant function is somewhere between Ni and Si. I even know some extremely dominant ESFJs who have hidden whimsy that just isn't indulged often. My ISTJ aunt was a literature major and described me as being like Anne of Green Gables, so she had a lot of deeply hidden whimsy that connected with me.

The second error was not communicating the conformity issue correctly. I do think that an investment in the concrete external world can provide a natural way for people to connect in terms of ideas, but it is only one of multiple factors relating to connection as the positive expression of it and conformity as the negative expression of it.. Ni in particular is defined by Jung as an internalized abstraction of reality, so it could follow naturally that a Ni-dom could reasonably have more difficulty connecting and in order to form connection would be required to conform to external requirements. Fe also plays a significant role in social conformity pressures.

I framed my response from the perspective of various abstract loners I've known who happened to be intelligent, so that there is a differential for them specifically and personally in their environments, but no, I don't think that is the case for defining all of S or N. I think it could be really demoralizing to feel completely out of place in your environment, to express something of it online, and have everyone berate you for it. The theoretical categories of MBTI could invite a sense of solace especially for a Ni-dom, so I think a person should at least be able to express some frustration about their life and not have it mean something specific about anyone posting here online. When I made my response I was excluding anyone I could think of on this forum who might identify as a Sensor, and was just thinking about the way real life often looks.

 

[that's not my name]

Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy if there ever was one.

 

[evilrubberduckie]

This topic is rubbing me off the wrong way and I think its because it seems that the OP isnt using this topic as a " I think differently then everyone else and therfore communication is more difficult. I need constructive criticim" and it seems to come off as " I think differently then others, therefore I am better. " at least thats the tone i am reading off of on it.

It irritates me because as an NT I see other NT's use their brain wiring as a lable system. When in reality no one is better then the other. Sensors have so much to offer that we lack, just like it is vice versa. You arent any better then the person next to you. Rather then using mbto and a heiarcy system. Why dont you use it as a means to grow as a human being?

Everything that is hard in this life is something worth achieving.

Edit: nevermind. OP isnt saying he is better. He is just confused. my arguement still stands. NT's get off your high horse. Emotions and humans are confusing. But that's what makes us human. Grow a pair and learn to deal with it. And yes, you have to learn to deal with it

 

[Coriolis]

as an SP, I would appreciate it if the orderly and obedient stereotype was not applied to ALL Sensors... I've spent YEARS being bad and disobedient and living on a whim and diving into life with gusto

I thought that WAS the SP stereotype . . .

It is okay to be different, and it doesn't require a value judgment of who is better. Concrete people often feel superior to abstract 'nerds' (unless the nerd earns a lot of money and has a beautiful house) so let's allow each their own perspective.

When a person doesn't naturally fit into the norm and can't conform to hide the fact, they are going to feel predominately isolated from people. That social isolation itself can be damaging to self-esteem, "what's wrong with me that I can't fit in or connect with the majority of people? What's wrong with me that my interests are different from other people?" I don't see the point in ostracizing someone for this. Those are difficult questions and there is a cost and a reward for however we choose to live our lives. If we choose personal authenticity, we won't have as much social connection and can end up feeling lonely or out of place. If you pay the price of conformity, they you will have the comfort of social belonging. The cost is higher for some people and the reward is greater for some. Whichever is greater will direct our chocies.

First, thank you for posting this. It needed to be said, regardless of what labels properly apply to people and their various ways of not fitting in. Yes, it does come down to costs vs. benefit. I have generally found the price of conformity too high, especially since it never produces a sense of real belonging, but simply the knowledge that I have correctly deduced the rules and been able to follow them. I can be courteous to people in general, helpful, even sociable if I try. But if we are on too different a wavelength, I never feel I truly belong.

Do you feel like you don't fit into society? Were you bullied and ostracized? I'm asking because I want to hear your experiences and also you seem to want acknowledgement based off what you've written in your posts here.

Not labyrinthine, but: yes, and yes. And no, I don't want acknowledgment, just posted because the topic was raised.

Edit: nevermind. OP isnt saying he is better. He is just confused. my arguement still stands. NT's get off your high horse. Emotions and humans are confusing. But that's what makes us human. Grow a pair and learn to deal with it. And yes, you have to learn to deal with it

That's not all that makes us human. Sadly the people who are good with emotions and humans are often just as (or even more?) resistant to learning to deal with the other side of things. The financial downturn of the last decade has even been blamed on the poor math literacy of the average person. We're not talking group theory or advanced calculus here, just understanding appreciation, interest rates, and simple probability.

 

[magpie]

Not labyrinthine, but: yes, and yes. And no, I don't want acknowledgment, just posted because the topic was raised.

Sorry, I can't respond to this unless I can acknowledge it.