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  1. #91
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Actually, not a great analogy:
    You XNTPs and your analogy-dissecting. I have this precise debate with my ENTP friend all of the time; he points out the (to me) insignificant ways in which my analogy doesn't line up perfectly and I get frustrated because I was simply throwing out an analogy as a means of attempting to explain in words a notion swirling about my mind. My contention is that if you understood what I was getting at, then the analogy was a fine analogy as it served its purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    If you're lost and go to a cop for help, it's implicit that you're there mainly for a set of directions. His duty in the relationship IS to resolve practical matters. Of course you wouldn't go to him just for emotional support.

    Meanwhile, many people approach their friends in order to find some solidarity and vent their frustrations without fear of judgment, probably on equal levels with the desire for some sort of solution. They are also feeling emotionally vulnerable. Friends play many roles at once, with the relational/emotional support being a large part of things.

    I think the role of a friend is to determine what is truly needed <not necessarily what they want, but what they need> by the person and do their best to play that role. And often the friend must equip the person to resolve the issue themselves (or encourage them in a way that allows them to continue the battle), rather than trying to just directly solve it for them. Providing solutions and little else transforms the relationship from an equal-level one to a hierarchical one, with the person with the problem being on a lower level than the one providing the solution.

    (So they came to their friend as an equal level person and go away feeling preached to or talked down to or suffering the insinuation they weren't smart enough to solve their own problem, when really they just wanted someone to reframe things or tell them they weren't as far off-base as they felt.)
    Fair enough, but if I'm expected to read people and anticipate their wants/reactions/etc., it's a two-way street. If someone can't tell within about 2 minutes of meeting me that I'm not your guy for emotional support then, well, they're pretty dense.

    Of course, at this point in my life I unintentionally (or without noticing I was doing it, at least) pared my acquaintances down to a group which contains no Fs at all. Problem solved!

  2. #92
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    They'll probably just want to start a "Name Three Reasons NF's are so Wonderful" thread.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #93
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    You XNTPs and your analogy-dissecting. I have this precise debate with my ENTP friend all of the time; he points out the (to me) insignificant ways in which my analogy doesn't line up perfectly and I get frustrated because I was simply throwing out an analogy as a means of attempting to explain in words a notion swirling about my mind. My contention is that if you understood what I was getting at, then the analogy was a fine analogy as it served its purpose.
    lol, okay -- point taken then, now that I understand that.

    Fair enough, but if I'm expected to read people and anticipate their wants/reactions/etc., it's a two-way street. If someone can't tell within about 2 minutes of meeting me that I'm not your guy for emotional support then, well, they're pretty dense.
    Good point as well. Although sometimes people are as hard-headed as they accuse us of being -- "You WILL listen to me, and you WILL sympathize, and you WILL help me feel better... just because I want you to!"

    The only conflict is with people who you're related to... who thus attach empathy requirements to the relationship (spouse, kid, parent, whatnot). Those ones are hard to weasel out of: "You married me, so you're supposed to care!"
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #94
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    you're supposed to care!
    Strangely replying with "you're supposed to think" causes more offence than they seem to think that their statement made...
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    Why do you have to wait for them to start?
    Some people consider it rude for one group to start topics about another group!

  6. #96
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Some people consider it rude for one group to start topics about another group!
    But, of course, that did not stop him in the least...

    (that's our boy!)

    Let's see if the NFs play along, though, before we get too excited about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Strangely replying with "you're supposed to think" causes more offence than they seem to think that their statement made...
    I can vouch that the "You're supposed to care!" offended me on SO many different levels when I heard it.

    (For example, "Are you saying I *don't* care??? Why do you think I'm wasting all this time listening to you get so worked up??? And why have I spent the last five years in this friendship/marriage/whatever??? Because I *don't* care???")
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #97
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Moved Mycroft's interesting post/question here.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #98
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I can vouch that the "You're supposed to care!" offended me on SO many different levels when I heard it.

    (For example, "Are you saying I *don't* care??? Why do you think I'm wasting all this time listening to you get so worked up??? And why have I spent the last five years in this friendship/marriage/whatever??? Because I *don't* care???")
    That always throws them I recall a very similar discussion with an old friend who thought I basically disagreed with everything about him. Trying to explain that of course I gave a shit otherwise I'd not say a word and just nod and that disagreeing is just another form of conversation and working through things. Took several days and some shouting
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #99
    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
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    Right. If I didn't care I wouldn't be trying so hard. Oy.

    This signature left intentionally blank.

    Really.

  10. #100
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    That always throws them
    Actually, what usually happened is that the Feeler hones in on the word "wasted" (see my quote) that I let slip out in frustration -- "What do you mean WASTING your time??? You consider this marriage/friendship to be WASTING your time? Why did you ever marry/befriend me if you just thought you were WASTING your life!!!!!??? I hate you! Go away! I don't know why I thought I could ever talk to you about the things that matter to me!"

    Grrrrrr.....

    which leads to:
    #5 Reason. Typecast as the RB/HB [Ruthless Bastard / Heartless Bitch].
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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