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  1. #61
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So if you guys don't want to compromise within a relationship with a non-NT, don't be surprised at the reactions you get from them. I do view sporadic communication as a sign as disinterest, even if it's not the case. I know there are nonessential things people do frequently because they're interested in them and I don't see how shooting off a quick email or phone call is that difficult. I try to figure out the other person and adjust to their comfort level and try not be bothered by what's normal for them, but it quickly gets frustrating.
    don't get me wrong. when it's a valued friendship, i care very much. but caring in a language understood more clearly by the other person won't get expressed unless i'm aware that it's needed. i definitely care enough, if the relationship is valued, to step out of my comfort zone and put in the necessary effort. i won't change completely, of course, (when people do that, they can't keep it up long term, and that just causes more problems later) and the effort i'd put in would still have an NT flavor to it, but it would still be effort.

    expecting the other person to do everything wouldn't make sense to me, BUT it has to be expressed to me that i'm coming up short as far as they're concerned, or i'll assume they're as okay with how things are as i am.

  2. #62
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    don't get me wrong. when it's a valued friendship, i care very much. but caring in a language understood more clearly by the other person won't get expressed unless i'm aware that it's needed. i definitely care enough, if the relationship is valued, to step out of my comfort zone and put in the necessary effort. i won't change completely, of course, (when people do that, they can't keep it up long term, and that just causes more problems later) and the effort i'd put in would still have an NT flavor to it, but it would still be effort.

    expecting the other person to do everything wouldn't make sense to me, BUT it has to be expressed to me that i'm coming up short as far as they're concerned, or i'll assume they're as okay with how things are as i am.
    Alright, so how would a person like me avoid the clingy, needy, and dependent label when talking about something like this?

    I wonder if it's simply a matter of them saying to the NT, "Would you pay more attention to me?" that's getting interpreted, "Spend every free moment with me." I enjoy my space also, I have enough friends and activities to satisfy my extrovertedness. But when I'm afraid to call someone because they're sending out conflicting signals about the nature of the relationship, I'm clueless. And then after a while, I become apathetic towards the relationship and the other person thinks I'm playing games. I'm not playing games, I'm just beginning not to care! And if the other person still cares, I can see how they'd think I'm the one acting insincere.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Nighthawk's Avatar
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    Not sure if this has been covered yet ... but as an INTP, I value directness in a relationship. My F is so poorly developed that the other person will have to let me know how they feel. It is often difficult for me to discern it on my own. I believe this directness is possible without giving the impression of being clingy or pushy. Just state it "logically" ... and don't repeat it too much. The NT will probably appreciate knowing where they stand.

    As a caveat however, don't constantly try to evaluate the relationship and flood the NT with your feelings. Some balance is necessary. NTP's especially, like to go with the flow ... even if they appreciate directness.

  4. #64
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthawk View Post
    Not sure if this has been covered yet ... but as an INTP, I value directness in a relationship. My F is so poorly developed that the other person will have to let me know how they feel. It is often difficult for me to discern it on my own. I believe this directness is possible without giving the impression of being clingy or pushy. Just state it "logically" ... and don't repeat it too much. The NT will probably appreciate knowing where they stand.

    As a caveat however, don't constantly try to evaluate the relationship and flood the NT with your feelings. Some balance is necessary. NTP's especially, like to go with the flow ... even if they appreciate directness.
    In my own experience, the trick to being direct, without seeming clingy or pushy is humor. Something like "God! I didn't hear from you for three months. I thought you died! I hadn't even had a chance to ask for your comic book collection, should you meet an untimely demise! Don't vanish on me like that, at least not until you've put me in your will!"

    Whaddaya think?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #65
    Senior Member Nighthawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    In my own experience, the trick to being direct, without seeming clingy or pushy is humor. Something like "God! I didn't hear from you for three months. I thought you died! I hadn't even had a chance to ask for your comic book collection, should you meet an untimely demise! Don't vanish on me like that, at least not until you've put me in your will!"

    Whaddaya think?
    That would work for me

  6. #66
    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
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    Ditto.

    This signature left intentionally blank.

    Really.

  7. #67
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Triple.

    Because I'd get the point, I'd see you have good intentions, and it would simply be funny all on its own.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  8. #68
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I value directness in any intimate relationship. I can read innuendo fairly well, but to me it implies distrust to not be direct. Reading innuendo takes more effort, and the people closest to me need to be my resting place. For me direct communication works best when you approach it without pent-up feeling. Just approach it like problem solving and honesty.

    My concept of autonomy incorporates some sense of my limitations. The people in my inner-most circle, I like to have a continual tie to so we are there for each other when needed. But I had experiences of being intensely isolated, so there is a place I am afraid to go back to. It limits my sense of complete autonomy. For me, the deepest intimate experience would be to spend the day alone with someone out in nature, silently.

    I tend to see others as constants without a desire to change them. If someone doesn't seem interested in spending time with me, I tend to just find another person who is interested. Occasionally it hurts if my hopes were high based on their uniqueness. That approach seems to expend less energy. I try to match what the other person has to offer, but then seek out others as needed to fill my personal needs. The concept of being intrusive or unwanted is very painful for me. To coerce someone into liking me is repulsive.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  9. #69
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Alright, so how would a person like me avoid the clingy, needy, and dependent label when talking about something like this?

    I wonder if it's simply a matter of them saying to the NT, "Would you pay more attention to me?" that's getting interpreted, "Spend every free moment with me."
    it depends on how close you are to the person. speaking only for myself of course, if it's not someone i'm in love with, the question, "would you pay more attention to me?" would immediately stomach-punch my panic button. you see, i'm set up to fail in that situation if it's not a committed romantic relationship (meaning i've already reached the point where i expect WORK to achieve growth).

    i could attempt, despite the panic, to pay attention to a friend more in the short term, but to be honest, i'd quickly either start to resent it or slide into my natural way of doing things, either way... failing them. so i panic. because i do care and don't want to hurt them, fail them, but i know i will. i can't succeed. basically, that friend may as well have said, "this isn't going to work. i need more than you can give."

    I enjoy my space also, I have enough friends and activities to satisfy my extrovertedness. But when I'm afraid to call someone because they're sending out conflicting signals about the nature of the relationship, I'm clueless. And then after a while, I become apathetic towards the relationship and the other person thinks I'm playing games. I'm not playing games, I'm just beginning not to care! And if the other person still cares, I can see how they'd think I'm the one acting insincere.
    you... bless your heart. if it helps, when i fell in love with an NT, i experienced the same kind of thing. i analyzed him to death, tried to read 'signs' because, well HE wasn't saying anything! i didn't know what was real and what i just wanted to be real. then i'd analyze that!

    eventually, i started to logic my way out of feeling anything. felt myself starting to become apathetic towards him. and, that's when my NTness kicked in. that's when i could again be objective enough to think clearer. i relaxed, and looked at it from how it would feel from my own perspective, and that's when it became much easier.

    i always had let him speak to me first nine out of ten times. that way, i knew without a doubt that he wanted to talk because i wouldn't speak to someone unless i planned on being there for a while... just in case (one never knows how talkative someone is going to be).

    however, i changed tactics by being open, direct, and honest about it. i decided to tell him that i know he's busy, so he shouldn't expect me to speak first very often at all, no matter how much i may like talking to him, because i don't want to interrupt. (and when we did speak, i made it clear at those moments that i had missed him, so he'd know). from that point on, it freed him up. it made it less stressful because he now knew it was his decision which is exactly the kind of freedom that i would want.

    the thing is, is that because he spoke often (and i watched the patterns, naturally ), it didn't take long to know that i could relax in how he felt and then i spoke first more often and as much as i wanted (though of course, there were a few times when i did interrupt, regretted speaking, then repeated the same thing about my not speaking first). overall, i still didn't do it much, but every now and then i did because it's fair, and that way, he'd know i liked talking to him too.

    things became much much easier after i put the ball in his court, but also made it clear that i want to play often even though i'm playing 'nice'.

  10. #70
    Senior Member chatoyer's Avatar
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    Default NF self-perception a factor

    I can relate to a lot of what proteanmix is complaining about.......and like cafe, I use a lot of humor with NTs to express some of the dissatisfaction with communication.

    But I think NFs need to realize that we need to bend on our idealistic self-perception -- if we're asking NTs to pay more attention to us, then we need to not freak out if we're perceived as more needy or emotionally-reactive, we just need to reframe the vocabulary. But I am in conflict about it--it doesn't feel good accused of being needy or dependent from an NT.

    We pride ourselves on being able to connect with almost anyone, so to connect to an "unconnectable/difficult to connect person" is really challenging & satisfying, it reaffirms our competence in our interpersonal skills. To be called needy questions our skills where we feel confident.

    And another point -- neediness/clingyness/dependency accusations are so subjective, am I NCD ( ) if I want to rehash some emotional event 1 more time than you do?

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