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  1. #51
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    My own (limited) experience with NTs is they do not compromise a lot, which sounds worse than it is. They are very autonomous and they expect autonomy from others, so there is very little need for compromise unless you are asking them to put themselves out, which isn't something you want to do very much. You have the whole, wide, wide world for wiggle room. All they ask for is their tiny, impenetrable core. That core pretty much is not going to budge, but you may do what you like outside of it.

    And I didn't explain that very well.
    No, I think that was pretty good.

    Compromise means something different to an NT than an NF (and in general, any other type). In my own relationship between two NTs, we don't compromise, we trade. We both say "this is how it is", then we trade off roles, positions, tasks, whatever else in order to create the situation we want.

    Compromise to us means something far more threatening... to give a part of ourselves up.

  2. #52
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Compromise to us means something far more threatening... to give a part of ourselves up.
    I have compared it to sometimes losing my "integrity" (since if I believe something to be true and the other side NOT to be true, then how can I possibly say, "We're both right" or allow the wrong side to pretend it's right?) ... but I like your comment better. The compromise does feel at some level as a "loss of self."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #53
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I have compared it to sometimes losing my "integrity" (since if I believe something to be true and the other side NOT to be true, then how can I possibly say, "We're both right" or allow the wrong side to pretend it's right?) ... but I like your comment better. The compromise does feel at some level as a "loss of self."
    Yup, I don't think it's about integrity exactly...

    In my previous relationships, short as they were, there was something about other types that went beyond "agreeing to disagree" - compromise to them implied that I needed to actually give credence to the disagreements, to change who I am, rather than just see the outside problem as a problem that needed to be negotiated to both party's satisfaction.

    There was also the tendency for expectations be unfair - ie: I want to spend every moment with you and I'm upset that you are working overtime... oh, you better get that raise or I'm going to crush your soul. Those kinds of traps are poison for NTs, if they realise it or not.

    Both of us are pragmatic in my current relationship (INTJ). Using the same example, we had an issue with time spent with each other. In previous cases, the non-NT would somehow imply that they had to change us/the NT had to change for the problem to be solved. In the NT-NT relationship, it was assumed that the problem was a given and that we needed to resolve it - in other words, it wasn't that she or I needed to change who we are - the resolution rested on finding a way to increase time spent, quality spent or any other factor that would lead to a feeling of 'not spending enough time together'. In our case, the issue had to do with quality, not time.

    The end result was a schedule change, so that we both get longer periods of work time rather than this constant abrupt changes that make 'together time' confusing and less meaningful. Is that a compromise? It's not to my GF and I.

    The result is often the same, but the approach is significantly different. The only times we use the word compromise outside of the NT 'definition' is when expectations don't match up with reality. In those cases, the other person is expected to explain why it isn't reasonable and get them back on track for the other person to start the trading process. The only problems that can be resolved are ones that don't touch that 'core' part of the NT.

    I wonder if that makes any sense...

  4. #54
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    In my previous relationships, short as they were, there was something about other types that went beyond "agreeing to disagree" - compromise to them implied that I needed to actually give credence to the disagreements, to change who I am, rather than just see the outside problem as a problem that needed to be negotiated to both party's satisfaction.

    There was also the tendency for expectations be unfair - ie: I want to spend every moment with you and I'm upset that you are working overtime... oh, you better get that raise or I'm going to crush your soul. Those kinds of traps are poison for NTs, if they realise it or not.
    ...

    The only times we use the word compromise outside of the NT 'definition' is when expectations don't match up with reality. In those cases, the other person is expected to explain why it isn't reasonable and get them back on track for the other person to start the trading process. The only problems that can be resolved are ones that don't touch that 'core' part of the NT.

    I wonder if that makes any sense...
    It does. It also makes me consider my own attitudes toward relationships (work, professional, personal, etc) which have mutated and altered over the years.

    On some level, I see continuation of an unacceptable relationship as a business compromise. Unacceptable=threatening core principles and values. Business=for benefit/profit of myself, of those I care for, or of endeavors I endorse. I'm keenly aware of a transition of a "real" relationship into a business transaction--and this, unfortunately, is usually a one-way street.

    When I was younger, I saw no reason to continue any unacceptable relationships. Obviously, I've learned that there are sometimes reasons. I've also learned exactly what the price is for continuing unacceptable relationships, so I can do the ROI justification.

    Once the ROI dwindles past a certain point, I walk away.

    I'm trying to learn how to blur the edges on "real" and business and how to make these ends on a spectrum, but I think that will be a long time coming.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  5. #55
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    As an NF with a few NT friends, I've gone through the "Don't they care about Friendship?!" stage. After some mild frustration of trying to determine whether they wanted the friendship as much as I did, I decided that I wasn't going to bother what the NTs wanted--I was going to be their friend as long as they would permit me simply because it was enjoyable for me. It felt a bit selfish at first (i.e. thinking only about my own enjoyment), but I decided they were being a little selfish anyway (by my definition) so I was going to do the same.

    I decided to throw out the rule that things had to be 50/50 in a friendship and to quit keeping score of who had given more. If I wanted to call them, I would; if I wanted to email, I would; if I wanted to visit, I would invite myself. If they got tired of me, they'd just have to make it obvious because it was too much for me to try and guess what they were thinking when they were giving mixed signals.

    It was a sort of annoyed desperation that caused me to do that, but it turned out to work really well. It is really low-maintenance. There's no keeping score. There aren't too many rules. We just enjoy each other.

  6. #56
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faith View Post
    It was a sort of annoyed desperation that caused me to do that, but it turned out to work really well. It is really low-maintenance. There's no keeping score. There aren't too many rules. We just enjoy each other.
    Heck, usually we don't know if you have family; we don't notice how old you are, what you look like, where you live, what you do (unless it's topically important). We're interested in your brain.

    We might expect the same obliviousness focus on what's really important in return, though.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  7. #57
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faith View Post
    I decided to throw out the rule that things had to be 50/50 in a friendship and to quit keeping score of who had given most. If I wanted to call them, I would; if I wanted to email, I would; if I wanted to visit, I would invite myself. If they got tired of me, they'd just have to make it obvious because it was too much for me to try and guess what they were thinking when they were giving mixed signals. It was a sort of annoyed desperation that caused me to do that, but it turned out to work really well. It is really low-maintenance. There's no keeping score. There aren't too many rules. We just enjoy each other.
    yay! You learned the rules!

    See? It's easy. It just feels all wrong at the beginning, but then it gets simple.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #58
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Ahh, this reminds me of the affair I had with an INTJ. Honestly, I really did try to understand his behavior as his inevitable retreat time. Sometimes that worked. The problem was that the pattern was physical intimacy, then retreat. It was a miserable pattern that I struggled to understand for way too many months. Quite frankly, at the end of the day, I can't really get past the idea that this particular expression of independence and need for retreat seemed pretty selfish and hurtful. I recognize that INTJs are way less concerned than INFJs about what comes across as selfish and hurtful, but seriously man. Ouch. I gave this dude TONS of space, lots of ocean all around him... but I always felt like I was doing all the giving/fulfilling of his needs. When I finally decided that it was over, he did tell me that there WAS emotional intimacy on his end, but... I was never able to recognize it if there was. Maybe he did try to give and I didn't know how to receive what he offered. Hell. I don't know. It's all very regrettable.
    This is a very good point Eileen (I grabbed it from the INFP/INTJ thread). I felt the same way about my longtime INTJ friend in the past, that I was doing a lot of compromising/trading (whatever) in the relationship and getting very little back. I valued the friendship enough to eventually get over it, but is still strikes me as unfair.

    Although our friendship is fine and dandy now, I don't talk to him the way I used to, I don't feel comfortable saying certain things because I feel (they have been in the past) they'll be tossed aside as some overly emotional bullshit. Once we went nearly four months without speaking to each other, which from the responses I've seen in this thread, is the norm for NT friendship. It may not have changed the nature of our friendship in his eyes, but in my eyes, the complete lack of effort to contact me said a lot about the status of our friendship. Sometimes I wonder if he even notices that I tend to confine what we talk about to subjects of his interest and not necessarily mine.

    So if you guys don't want to compromise within a relationship with a non-NT, don't be surprised at the reactions you get from them. I do view sporadic communication as a sign as disinterest, even if it's not the case. I know there are nonessential things people do frequently because they're interested in them and I don't see how shooting off a quick email or phone call is that difficult. I try to figure out the other person and adjust to their comfort level and try not be bothered by what's normal for them, but it quickly gets frustrating.

  9. #59
    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So if you guys don't want to compromise within a relationship with a non-NT, don't be surprised at the reactions you get from them.
    Reactions used to surprize me; They'd startle me, sometimes, I just couldn't figure out where it was coming from.

    This signature left intentionally blank.

    Really.

  10. #60
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Maybe it's an female trait, maybe it's b/c I have worked hard to develop my F...

    but I think that's partially why I really appreciate MBTI.

    I really go out of my way to send that paragraph-long email to that NF I care about just to remind them that I'm thinking about them (especially if we don't live close; I'm not a phone person).
    I wouldn't really care that much for someone to do that to me (not that I would be indifferent, but I just know it means a lot to others).

    I don't think all NTs or all INTJs are as selfish as this thread makes them out to be. I won't argue that that is not my nature.... but I certainly make conscious effort to be more than the easy version of myself. I know I care about a lot of people; I know I don't see them as much as I would like/they would like but I try to do the little things b/c I think the relationships are worth it.


    I have also grown out of a lot of friendships in the past half-decade (15-20 yrs of age). I think that's normal. Then I haven't bothered to make contact. It's better to just let people naturally drift in that case, in my opinion. It's not that I don't value our history, but sometimes people just grow out of each other.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

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