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  1. #31
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think even for a Thinker you're a bit of an anomaly.
    yeah, this INTJ thinks so too.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think even for a Thinker you're a bit of an anomaly.
    That comes from my uncanny ability to think outside of the box.

    The thing I can't understand is why people even value friendship and emotion. I never understood it. I just see it as weak. I'm not trying to shock or anything, I'm just trying to put things in perspective.

  3. #33
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    This is probably also going to sound odd... and I'm not even sure yet if it's valid... (it's based purely on anecdotal experience)... but I have experienced some of this confusion while talking with INxJ people online.

    I am not sure what I'm expecting in the conversation, but I think I am looking for a set of cues that they don't provide, and it really stymies me.

    With NP types, it's like we're casual, and we instinctively put out these cues -- maybe it's part of the P mentality, where you are constantly trying to play off the other person and react to what they do, and for your part you look for the other person's cues and in turn purposefully project your own for THEM to hook into in turn, it's part of the personality style -- but I do not get those cues from INxJ's very often. ENxJ's are a little better for me (I think due to the extraversion), but still cause some difficulty at times.

    I'm not even sure how to describe the cues yet. They are more like throwaway lines or just some sort of "acknowledgment" response I expect from them as part of playing the communication game. And I just don't get the cues back that I need to know exactly how to respond or react, so sometimes I find myself wondering if the other person is still interested in conversation, or if I said something that offended them, or what.

    (Right now, I just assume that everything is okay and work from there, but it still causes a bit of anxiety.)

    Has any other P experienced this sort of thing in communication with J types? INTP, INFP, ENFP, ENTPs... I don't seem to have this sort of problem with the majority of them. Just much more with the NJ's and INJ's in particular.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    That comes from my uncanny ability to think outside of the box.
    Please.

    Yes, you can think outside the box and I recognize that; but so can the rest of us. And many of us value (or have learned to value) relationships.

    Can you think outside your own box?

    The thing I can't understand is why people even value friendship and emotion. I never understood it. I just see it as weak. I'm not trying to shock or anything, I'm just trying to put things in perspective.
    Well, you're not really putting life into a perspective for us, you're just describing your current stage of life. Many of us have already been where you're standing right now and have moved past it, that's all. So we understand why emotions and friendship might be considered "weak"... and then we realized we were wrong or just needed to develop a more nuanced perspective.

    So don't give up on it yet. Just leave an opening to keep reevaluating that one.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #34
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    I also don't nkow what some people are saying re: the "value" aspect of the INTJ.

    Surely, to some degree, (or maybe universally) that is true. However, she's already "in". From what proteanmix described, he really genuinely was fascinated by her. Which, for an INTJ, is what does it. He values her mind and her ideas and her talents which he does not share... she's already "in".

    I think the issue is a mix of the INTJ not knowing what to do here. He doesn't want a superficial relationship, that I can guarantee you. Does he use hte internet often? Does he know how to have an electronic relationship? Is he aware of the fact taht you want to stay friends with him, or is he just thinking that you're a "people person" and he's nothing special to you?

    Just lay it all out there,all your questions and uncertainties about his "social behavior". volunteer the fact that you like his mind, and he'll make it clear from there about his friendship.

    You could also just tell him "you are my friend... I want you to work on being a better friend, b/c right now you're hovering below mediocrity". If you're explicit he'll understand.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  5. #35
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    That comes from my uncanny ability to think outside of the box.

    The thing I can't understand is why people even value friendship and emotion. I never understood it. I just see it as weak. I'm not trying to shock or anything, I'm just trying to put things in perspective.
    What you haven't realized yet, for whatever reason, is that you are weak. All humans are. We are, physically, nearly defenseless. We rely on our opposable thumbs, our ability to make and use tools, and our social groups in order to survive. We are nearly helpless for years after birth and may need to rely on others of our species at various times throughout our lives, certainly at the end most of us do.

    I highly doubt that you have no reliance on other human beings. The emotions/relationships are the oil that makes living as a social species possible. Our bodies even make and respond to chemicals from our interactions with one another. I'm sure you have heard of studies that indicate the health benefits of certain relationships, married men-even unhappily married ones, for instance, live longer and are generally healthier than single men (women have to be in happy marriages to gain health benefits, unfortunately). People who have pets also gain health benefits from those relationships. Babies, even if fed properly and otherwise cared for, will have poor health and possible brain damage if they are not touched often enough.

    It may not seem logical, but it is the reality of the situation.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #36
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not even sure how to describe the cues yet. They are more like throwaway lines or just some sort of "acknowledgment" response I expect from them as part of playing the communication game. And I just don't get the cues back that I need to know exactly how to respond or react, so sometimes I find myself wondering if the other person is still interested in conversation, or if I said something that offended them, or what.
    I think what you're talking about is just a continuation of a topic? Like you'll put an idea out there, an INJ will respond, then you'll respond, and all of the sudden, that's it. They don't say anymore on the idea and you're not sure if you said something wrong or right.

    If that's the case, I'm really guilty of that. I don't say anymore, because I said basically everything I wanted to say on the topic. Usually I'll say more, but otherwise, I've shown someone my opinion and perspective, and while I might think more on it after the conversation has ended, it's not likely that I'll say anything else unless they ask me what else I think or provide some sort of input I had yet to consider.

    But most of the time, I think it's the INJ tendency to make a call on something and stick to it.

  7. #37
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrielle View Post
    I think what you're talking about is just a continuation of a topic? Like you'll put an idea out there, an INJ will respond, then you'll respond, and all of the sudden, that's it. They don't say anymore on the idea and you're not sure if you said something wrong or right.
    I guess it could be something like that, I think that's part of it.

    I have also had exchanges where I put a few "leading" sentences in my comments, that either are actual questions to be answered or purposeful ambiguities that a P will normally pick up on and play out... but the J doesn't "bite at" them? So I get back a response that really focuses on providing an answer to one part of my comments, and ignores everything else.

    (Maybe a good metaphor would be like trying to small-talk with someone who just ends up shutting down the conversation because they don't feed you open-ended lines that you can respond to, everything is closed off? Maybe that actually IS the most probable thing going on, with the J need for closure... while the P tries to keep things open and going.)

    Or sometimes it's simply that I am expecting something a little less clinical sounding or cut-and-dried, but the response is so cut-and-dried that it feels like I am being shut out and thus the friendship might even be in question...

    With those, having talked to the INxJ's about it, I just tell myself to trust what they told me -- "Yes, we're friends, I think you're great!" -- and not gauge what is going on by the manner in which they have replied.

    (Again, there is my "P" thing trying to flex and "read" them through their current response, which feels more negative... because for a P, everything can change and so we automatically are gauging things as they go... and instead I have to simply rely on past conversation and trust them.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #38
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    That comes from my uncanny ability to think outside of the box.

    The thing I can't understand is why people even value friendship and emotion. I never understood it. I just see it as weak. I'm not trying to shock or anything, I'm just trying to put things in perspective.
    Which is weaker? Foresaking friendship for fear of being weak or taking the risks associated with friendship?
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  9. #39
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    Please.

    Yes, you can think outside the box and I recognize that; but so can the rest of us. And many of us value (or have learned to value) relationships.

    Can you think outside your own box?



    Well, you're not really putting life into a perspective for us, you're just describing your current stage of life. Many of us have already been where you're standing right now and have moved past it, that's all. So we understand why emotions and friendship might be considered "weak"... and then we realized we were wrong or just needed to develop a more nuanced perspective.

    So don't give up on it yet. Just leave an opening to keep reevaluating that one.
    Yeah--of course, this is what the NTs (and specifically INTs) who disagree when they look at the comments on not understanding the point of friends, etc. are all thinking.


    "Been there, done that, grown." That's how to put it!
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  10. #40
    Senior Member Cerpin_Taxt's Avatar
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    In reply to Uberfuhrer's comments. I dont think friendship is weak, but i can relate to you in so far as i find relationship's with other's to be very draining, and they generally -- for me -- lack any sembelence of fufillment.

    I dont think feeler's need relationship's more then thinker's as such; however, they probably do need more relationship's then thinker's.
    Last edited by Cerpin_Taxt; 06-18-2007 at 02:14 AM. Reason: no things in particular

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