[NT] Questions For Ts

[Sunshine]

Does everything go through the filter of logic for you? Or just most things?

For instance, being humane...if you consider yourself to be humane are you humane for the sake of being humane or because in your mind it's the most logical way to be or both?

 

[entropie]

Concerning myself, nothing really goes through any filter at all, but that is just me .

I guess having a preference of drawing impersonal conclusions and making impersonal judgements creates over time a set of experience within you. Like it would do with someone making mostly personal decisions.

What you see in the end is the shaped framework of experience that follows, if you approximate it a linear line in the foundation of your experience. From that line you can tell then, if someone preferences personal or impersonal facts or values.

I would say, you can not just say, if a T most of the time prefers thinking. The whole nature of the NT develops around the wish to explore things through a logical-mathematical view. This is something like the foundation of NT-ness but it is able to bend itself in several directions. It just resorts to its core, when things get irrational or fantastic.

 

[Sunshine]

Do you ever do things without thinking about/caring about whether or not it's logical?

Do you consider people's feelings because in your mind it's logical or just because you don't want to hurt them?

 

[Firelie]

Does everything go through the filter of logic for you? Or just most things?

It really depends on how important a particular thing is and how much time I have to think about it.

Some things don't lend themselves well to logic...for instance, if I saw someone bleeding in the street, I wouldn't stand there and ponder the scene first before making my next move. I might check to see if a car's coming before darting out to help, though.

 

[spirilis]

I sometimes consider peoples' feelings not because it's logical, and not really because I don't want to hurt them, but because I don't want to deal with the discord of addressing their expression of discomfort when I do in fact hurt their feelings. It's a "taking the path of least resistance" sort of thing. In fact that principle governs a *lot* of my thoughts.

 

[entropie]

Do you ever do things without thinking about/caring about whether or not it's logical?

Haha, all the time . But I think my answer is only valid for my special personality

Do you consider people's feelings because in your mind it's logical or just because you don't want to hurt them?

This is a more intresting question. My answer would be, I really want to act in a way to not hurt peoples feelings but most of the times I even did not recognize that I just did hurt someones feelings.

It is with me, more a lack of experience with feelings, if you put it that way

 

[nottaprettygal]

I sometimes consider peoples' feelings not because it's logical, and not really because I don't want to hurt them, but because I don't want to deal with the discord of addressing their expression of discomfort when I do in fact hurt their feelings. It's a "taking the path of least resistance" sort of thing. In fact that principle governs a *lot* of my thoughts.

BINGO. I do the exact same thing. If I'm dealing with an emotional person, a lot of time I'll just agree or act nice because I just don't want to have to deal with the emotional aftermath of saying what I actually want or think. So really, it's a concern for myself more than them.

Not everything goes through a "logic" filter like the OP suggests. It does, however, go through a "lazy" filter. "What is the laziest thing to do here? Okay. Let's go with that."

 

[Sunshine]

lol.

What about the big things? The important things? Tell me about your descision making process.

 

[entropie]

Please define big things

You mean like marriage ?

 

[nottaprettygal]

lol.

What about the big things? The important things? Tell me about your descision making process.

When it comes to something that is very important, I try to make the most logical and objective (if that applies) decision possible. I'll run through a list of possible decisions in my head and then predict the outcomes, as well as take into account what I cannot predict.

For an important decision, I almost never rely on values to make the decision, which Fs may do. I will use my intuition to come up with a choice or option, but I don't feel comfortable just going with that. I have to back it up with logic.

Also, when there is a major decision that must be made, I definitely consider people's feelings less than I would in a smaller decision. . . which may seem counter-intuitive.

 

[spirilis]

Like buying a car? I went through this last January so I still remember most of it-

Very logical progression, using prior experience with specifying technical design/etc. like I do at work.

1. What are my needs?
1a. All-wheel-drive for accelerative traction
1b. Roomy enough to hold my fat-ass
1c. Roomy enough to hold my friends
1d. Price brand new <$24K
2. Prioritize those needs
2a. Price brand new <$24K
2b. Roomy enough to hold my fat ass
2c. AWD
2d. Roomy enough to hold my friends
3. Reliability?
3a. Prior experience tells me Japanese vehicles usually have great track records.
4. Brand?
4a. Subaru. Cheap AWD, Japanese, and a buddy of mine swears by him (well, his parents do, but him by extension). Here I'm diverging from logic a tad and going by word-of-mouth alone.
5. Line up financing and find the best deal
5a. Line up financing. I shuffled money around and applied for one of those "blank check" type of online auto financing things.
5b. Locate local dealerships. I used edmunds.com to field a bunch of request-for-quotes for all the nearby Subaru dealerships.
5c. Test drive different Subaru models, evaluate specific features and perform non-linear shoot-from-the-hip logic. This is where everything turns blurry and I logically evaluate the different featuresets--presence of limited-slip differential, hill holder features, rough "feel" for the acceleration (determined by test driving), feel of the vehicle's handling (determined by test driving), etc.
6. Select ideal model and narrow the search.
6a. Subaru Forester has the ideal set of features and at the right price. Found a dealership in Leesport, PA that was practically throwing a brand new one at me (knocked the price down a lot without me even asking; the dude was extremely straightforward with everything, no bullshit, honestly I think I was dealing with an INTJ or maybe ISTJ there [based on other factors I observed during the purchasing process]... he was cool.)
7. Execute the purchase
7a. Arranged the time to test drive & purchase, dressed nicely, put together a binder with damned near everything I could possibly ever need with me--full breakout of all Subaru models & full specifications, price quotes from all the local dealerships, a full copy of my credit report, printout of all available incentives, map to all the local dealerships (in case this one didn't pan out I'd know how to get to the next one), title information for my current car, kelley blue book printout for my current car, etc.

 

[substitute]

Do you ever do things without thinking about/caring about whether or not it's logical?

Do you consider people's feelings because in your mind it's logical or just because you don't want to hurt them?

Sometimes though it *is* logical to hurt people, and it's in their best interest to do so. Like when somebody is deluded, or when they need to be told something they don't want to hear. But criticism always hurts, however constructive it is; it wouldn't be logical however to refrain from ever giving it simply to avoid hurting. Doesn't help the boss or the staff in the long run.

I guess what you're asking seems to me to be something along the lines of "can people really care about other people without empathy?" to which my answer is a firm "yes!" I've seen sympathy dismissed here as some kind of inferior cousin of empathy, but I don't feel this to be the case. In many ways sympathy can be just as, if not more, constructive than empathy. When I see somebody is in a bad situation and by either referencing my own experience or using my imagination, or a combination of both, I'm moved to sympathy for them and this causes me to want to alleviate their situation, it's easier to do this if my own actions and judgement aren't clouded by actually feeling the other person's emotions as well as my own.

Like entropie said, Thinkers don't lose the ability to feel the minute they're 'diagnosed' as Thinkers in the MBTI system. Everyone uses all of the 16 functions, MBTI only tells us which ones we default to if given no reason to do otherwise.

I've seen mothers giving eyewitness accounts of their own children being mutilated and killed in front of them in Darfur (and years ago, at Sarajevo when I worked with refugees then too), and I've felt like crying, too, because I'm so angry that this is allowed to happen, and because I despair because, logically, I know it always will. But I've not allowed myself to cry in front of the other person because, logically, I've understood that this wouldn't help them.

So in short, yes I'm as capable of caring as any Feeler. But how something reaches me, what I decide to do about it and why tend to be mainly logic based; through thinking about what would be the most effective in bringing the situation as close to ideal as possible.

 

[Simplexity]

^ Excellent post I think you captured it perfectly. Logic is always in the background influencing every action. If I feel something strongly like that I'll override the internal reasoning thats going on and react in as controlled a manner as I can.

 

[Enyo]

Does everything go through the filter of logic for you? Or just most things?

For instance, being humane...if you consider yourself to be humane are you humane for the sake of being humane or because in your mind it's the most logical way to be or both?

What filter?

Honestly, I don't have a filter. I don't look at things in terms of "is it logical to do this?" or any other way. That requires a certain artificiality that I don't possess.

Do you ever do things without thinking about/caring about whether or not it's logical?

Do you consider people's feelings because in your mind it's logical or just because you don't want to hurt them?

I never think in terms of logical or illogical for my actions, unless it's because I have to explain my actions or justify them.

How much I consider people's feelings, in all honesty, depends on how much I care about that person. If I make a decision that will impact my husband or my son, I may take their feelings into account. I want them to be happy; when they are not happy, it is not conducive to a peaceful household.

However, when my decisions are for business purposes, I do not take feelings into account beyond how much those feelings will effect the bottom line. (That includes retention of employees and employee performance. If they are miserable, their performance will suffer. But I have to evaluate whether that will be a short term misery or a long term misery that would go beyond growing pains.)

This is a more intresting question. My answer would be, I really want to act in a way to not hurt peoples feelings but most of the times I even did not recognize that I just did hurt someones feelings.

It is with me, more a lack of experience with feelings, if you put it that way

This. I don't understand why people get upset over a lot of the things that they do, and I really have a hard time telling when I've hurt someone's feelings unless they are crying, screaming, or tell me point-blank that I've done so.

It's not that I don't care about people's feelings. I just don't understand them most of the time.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

lol.

What about the big things? The important things? Tell me about your descision making process.

I use thinking to make decisions most of the time, because it is easier for me, it's more precise, and thinking is better at achieving goals. However I usually rely more on feeling when making important decisions.

In general I believe thinking is a poor process for telling you want should be important and how you should act in relation to the important things. This is where feeling is superior. However thinking is clearly superior in achieving goals. So my philosophy in life is to use feeling to set the goals and thinking to achieve them.

 

[Sunshine]

Sometimes though it *is* logical to hurt people, and it's in their best interest to do so. Like when somebody is deluded, or when they need to be told something they don't want to hear. But criticism always hurts, however constructive it is; it wouldn't be logical however to refrain from ever giving it simply to avoid hurting. Doesn't help the boss or the staff in the long run.

I wasn't asking about instances in which it's in the person's best interest to be hurt. And I wasn't implying that it's never logical to hurt people either.

You said it was logical in that instance to hurt someone. Well it's also considerate. Because, like you said, it's in their best interest.

So when you've done that in the past, given someone a little criticism because they needed it...what was your main motivation? If you don't mind my asking.

I guess what you're asking seems to me to be something along the lines of "can people really care about other people without empathy?" to which my answer is a firm "yes!" I've seen sympathy dismissed here as some kind of inferior cousin of empathy, but I don't feel this to be the case. In many ways sympathy can be just as, if not more, constructive than empathy. When I see somebody is in a bad situation and by either referencing my own experience or using my imagination, or a combination of both, I'm moved to sympathy for them and this causes me to want to alleviate their situation, it's easier to do this if my own actions and judgement aren't clouded by actually feeling the other person's emotions as well as my own.

No. That wasn't what I was getting at at all but it's still good to hear your thoughts anyway.

I wanted to know if everything or mostly everything needed to be sifted through a filter of "Is it logical?" but reading people's responses that's not necessarily the case.

Like entropie said, Thinkers don't lose the ability to feel the minute they're 'diagnosed' as Thinkers in the MBTI system. Everyone uses all of the 16 functions, MBTI only tells us which ones we default to if given no reason to do otherwise.

I've seen mothers giving eyewitness accounts of their own children being mutilated and killed in front of them in Darfur (and years ago, at Sarajevo when I worked with refugees then too), and I've felt like crying, too, because I'm so angry that this is allowed to happen, and because I despair because, logically, I know it always will. But I've not allowed myself to cry in front of the other person because, logically, I've understood that this wouldn't help them.

So in short, yes I'm as capable of caring as any Feeler. But how something reaches me, what I decide to do about it and why tend to be mainly logic based; through thinking about what would be the most effective in bringing the situation as close to ideal as possible.

Of course you're as capable of caring as a feeler.

 

[booyalab]

Logic isn't a filter.

 

[Sunshine]

I use thinking to make decisions most of the time, because it is easier for me, it's more precise, and thinking is better at achieving goals. However I usually rely more on feeling when making important decisions.

In general I believe thinking is a poor process for telling you want should be important and how you should act in relation to the important things. This is where feeling is superior. However thinking is clearly superior in achieving goals. So my philosophy in life is to use feeling to set the goals and thinking to achieve them.

I agree. That's exactly what I do. What does that make me?

 

[Sunshine]

Logic isn't a filter.

You knew what I meant though, right?

Uhhh errr *thinks about different ways of wording it*

 

[Sunshine]

Standing as far back as you possibly can, looking at the big picture, what is the bottom line?

What is your bottom line?


Your bottom line for life.


What is the point?