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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kensei View Post
    You cannot prove God, and you cannot prove atheism. Let's look innto the logic of it. Which seems more likely? A( an all powerful force creating the Earth with a purpose for everything? Or B( the universe randomely generating itself even though there is only a one in 1 billion chance that that could happen, maybe even less of a chance than that
    Everyone needs to decide for themselves, no argumentative bullshit, because there is no way to prove how the universe was created directly. Just focus on this post. It has every ounce of logic one needs to decide. Whether you choose religion or atheism that is your choice, no one else can destroy that.
    Firstly you are saying, i(or anyone else) cannot prove god, nor can i prove atheism. So, you mean that you don't like my explanation(because it was trying to prove the existence of god). But i have told this 5 times before, if you don't like my explanation, please bring logical arguements against mine. But you did not show any logical reasons against my explanation.

    Secondly, i have told this once before, i hate to argue with non-intps. Through my life, i have argued most of the times with non-intps, i know very well how logical and open-minded they are.

    Thirdly, you are trying to say, there is no answer to the question about god's existence. The answer that says there is no answer, itself is not a satisfying answer(intps always want logical answers).

    So please, these types of answers without any logical reasons proving my explanation wrong, are very unwanted.

  2. #52
    Super Ape Luke O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yasin View Post
    let me summarize my own explanation.there were mainly three parts in it. the first two parts were used only to describe the complexity of life and the occurrence of innumerable coincidences which created perfect conditions for everything.

    --------SUMMARY-------

    First part, extreme complexity of the creation of life from lifeless things automatically, which makes it extremely improbable. But due to INNUMERABLE COINCIDENCES, ultimately life was formed with the simplest form.

    Second part, creation of two perfectly balanced chief divisions, plants and animals, from the same group of cells, although it is extremely improbable. I have told before, that seeing the extremely perfect balancing of animals and plants, it seems as if they had communicated and planned with each other for their survival, while they actually cannot. And for this the formation of such a balance by dividing chiefly into plants and animals, and again into insects, birds etc is extremely improbable. But due to INNUMERABLE COINCIDENCES they evolved from the same group of cells into plants and animals(chiefly) and thus, such a perfect balance was formed.

    The third part, and this was the MAIN PART, the "in-coincidentally" unique uniqueness and incomparability of the human beings, which broke the rules of coincidence. In the first two parts we saw that innumerable coincidences caused perfect conditions for innumerable reactions, and thus formed life and then formed perfectly balanced plants and animals. Coincidence created perfect conditions for everything in such a way, that millions and millions of species of different plants and animals were formed, which, in this way or that, were dependent on each other. I have already mentioned the names and numbers of a lot of species of different animals and insects(elephants, cats etc), all of which are the results of coincidence. Coincidence could create so many species of different animals and insects, each having atleast one another species comparable with itself and very similar(for example, Loxodonta africana and Elephas maximus, both are species of elephants), and again, coincidence could make all these species interdependent in this way or that. But, only in case of humans, coincidence could not create or make survive a few species comparable and similar to the humans, and again, only in case of the humans, it made them dependent on all the other species, but made no other species dependent on them for survival(explained in my explanation). Does not make sense to me. Why should things be different for us? Why is it only humans who debate about god? If coincidence worked for humans just as it had worked for the others and made life from lifeless and millions and millions of interdependent and comparable species(like Loxodonta africana and Elephas Maximus), there should have been ATLEAST one another species like us, similar and comparable. If we are really not so special and no one had created us, and coincidence(without guidance) is the thing that is working behind every life, then we should also have been playing roles in the ecosystem and without us the environment would have been imbalanced. But this idea of humans naturally playing roles in the ecosystem as other living things is just absurd. Our only role in the system of Earth is to create imbalance. This shows that coincidence did not work for us the way it did for others. But it cannot happen. And for this I called the uniqueness of human beings to be "in-coincidental". But this "in-coincidence" is never supposed to be. But why did it happen? If coincidence occurred so many times without anyone's guidance, there should not have been any "in-coincidence". This clearly shows that there is someone guiding all these, causing coincidences but keeping exceptions only in case of the only being on Earth, that can question the existence of god. This "in-coincidental" exception can only make sense, only if there is a god in the model, who has caused it, for some reason, certainly. Otherwise, this exception does not make sense. So, there is GOD

    -------END OF SUMMARY-------



    You have told this two times already. But I have never said or even tried to say that improbable is impossible. I never said that there is god because the creation of life and it's balance is very improbable, until, until the humans made this in-coincidental exception, which does not make a sense without god's existence. If there was ATLEAST one another species like humans, comparable and similar, and if they were playing there own roles in the ecosystem, only then, the inexistence of god would have made sense.



    ---------IS AN ENTITY THAT CAN DO THE IMPOSSIBLE ALSO IMPOSSIBLE?--------

    Think, a thousand years ago I tell an atheist like you, god can make things travel a thousand kilometres in just an hour. He would have said, "Hey mad guy! It's impossible!". Does it really mean it is impossible for humans a thousand years later?

    So it was impossible for humans a thousand years ago and it seemed impossible to them because they did not know how to do it, does not necessarily mean it was actually impossible for god and also for future humans. And so, it is no issue for god to be able to create things that were impossible for humans a thousand years ago, or even now.

    Now you can ask me how god had made all these although it is clearly impossible for us? Recently I was asked this question by an intj friend of mine(he is a Hindu, and Hindu youths have almost no idea about god, I myself am not a hindu). I told him the same thing, it is impossible for me, and I don't how to make something, does it necessarily mean it cannot be made, even by god, whose existence is clearly seen in the coincidences and in-coincidences of nature(explained in my explanation)? Besides, if I could really tell how god made all these, I myself would have been god, which I am not.

    The signs of life clearly show the existence of god(as I explained), but they don't show how god works, so, I would say, I don't know how he does things. But the signs of life do clearly show his existence(as I explained), so I can say why he exists but not how he works.
    I must admit I'm a little confused. If I'm correct, this is what you're telling me:
    1) Prior to humanity, there was a perfect balance between plants and animals, which you deem a coincidence.
    2) When humanity arrived, this balance was broken, therefore incoincidental and therefore proof of God.

    I'm at odds with this. For there to be a perfect balance, this would infer a static and stable system as neither plant nor animal would need to adapt to new conditions, and any change via mutation would be eliminated as an inferiority. This is clearly not the case, as the palaeontological record shows us that the environment was undergoing constant change, and so were lifeforms, adapting to changes in the environment and changes in each other. This shows us that there is no evidence of a "perfect balance", in fact the Earth was in various states of imbalance throughout its history, continuing to this day. Humanity is merely another factor upsetting the balance of things.

    You also say that there should have been another species around similar to humans. There were the Neanderthals, and the recently discovered Homo floresiensis, close relatives of us.

    Moving onto entities that can do impossible things, I think you've hit on something important here - the difference between something impossible and something *perceived as* impossible. A thousand years ago, someone may look up into the sky and see a shooting star, travelling faster than a thousand kilometres per hour. They don't understand it, they've never seen anyone able to do something like that, so they think it is impossible and maybe attribute it to something divine (you know people wish upon a star at times, this is related). Nowadays, we understand shooting stars as debris merely burning up in the atmosphere, we know why it happens, it no longer is perceived to be impossible, this is science for you. This is why people explore things people say are impossible, we debunk myths, expose fraudsters and demystify miracles to seek the truth, and nobody - nobody has found anything which is actually impossible yet. It is only when we stop looking, start accepting what people tell us without question, and putting our faith in what we are told do we start getting further away from the truth.

  3. #53
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    Talk to myself.

  4. #54
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    Religion works not by reason but by trance.

    Sex is the same as religion and also works by trance rather than reason.

    And I hope you will forgive me for saying so, but mbti also works by trance rather than reason.

    So religion, sex and mbti are entrancing.

    However a double trance, or a trance within a trance, such as the sexual trance hidden within the mbti trance, tends to be addictive.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Religion works not by reason but by trance.

    Sex is the same as religion and also works by trance rather than reason.

    And I hope you will forgive me for saying so, but mbti also works by trance rather than reason.

    So religion, sex and mbti are entrancing.

    However a double trance, or a trance within a trance, such as the sexual trance hidden within the mbti trance, tends to be addictive.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
    And interestingly, humour also works by trance rather than reason.

    So reason can't entrance us with humour, anymore than reason can entrance us with God, or for that matter, anymore than reason can entrance us with sex, or pace moderators, anymore than mbti can entrance us with reason.

    In short: there is no reason to be entranced.

    And yet how we long to be enchanted, how we long to be entranced.

    And how we hate anyone who dares wake us from our trance.

  7. #57
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    And interestingly, humour also works by trance rather than reason.

    So reason can't entrance us with humour, anymore than reason can entrance us with God, or for that matter, anymore than reason can entrance us with sex, or pace moderators, anymore than mbti can entrance us with reason.

    In short: there is no reason to be entranced.

    And yet how we long to be enchanted, how we long to be entranced.

    And how we hate anyone who dares wake us from our trance.
    I'd argue on existentialist grounds that humor is a serious business.

    Protestantism differs from Catholicism in that it often places more importance on belief. Is it any surprise, then, that atheists from Protestant backgrounds often place a lot of importance on their disbelief in God? They sometimes seem to want everyone to know that they don't believe in God, which is curious.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  8. #58
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    And interestingly, humour also works by trance rather than reason.

    So reason can't entrance us with humour, anymore than reason can entrance us with God, or for that matter, anymore than reason can entrance us with sex, or pace moderators, anymore than mbti can entrance us with reason.

    In short: there is no reason to be entranced.

    And yet how we long to be enchanted, how we long to be entranced.

    And how we hate anyone who dares wake us from our trance.
    Of course people often react poorly when someone tries to "right their wrong". That's basic human psychology.

    People also often react poorly when someone acts like a haughty know-it-all.
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  9. #59
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    I'm pretty sure that if MBTI induced a sexual trance, it would be a lot more popular than it is.

    Do try to stay on topic.
    Likes Cygnus, SD45T-2, Hard, Obsidius, Luke O and 2 others liked this post

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by yasin View Post
    -------does a god really exist?------

    We know that the living world works in a perfect and extremely complex system. extremely complex reactions,both physical and chemical,are always occurring in just the perfect doses in just the right place and time so that the whole universe remains balanced.

    Now let's think about the first being ever created/born/produced. science says that the living beings are formed by various lifeless chemical elements like carbon,hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, iron, iodine, potassium, phosphorus etc(i CERTAINLY agree).but every organic substance,produced by the reactions of these non-living elements,are produced by extremely complex,perfectly calculated and lengthy chemical processes. even if it is just carbohydrates.

    Below i am mentioning just a small portion of the process of producing carbohydrates in short,you can skip this para if you already know how complex the process of producing carbohydrates is. besides,you don't need to understand or remember the reactions mentioned below,they are only mentioned here so that it is clear for you to realize just how complex the reactions can be just for producing carbohydrates,this is the small portion:

    1. Grab: A five-carbon carbon catcher catches one molecule of carbon dioxide and forms a six-carbon molecule.
    2. Split: the enzyme RuBisCO (with the energy of ATP and NADPH molecules) breaks the six-carbon molecule into two equal parts.
    3. Leave: A trio of three carbons leave and become sugar. The other trio moves on to the next step.
    4. Switch: Using ATP and NADPH, the three carbon molecule is changed into a five carbon molecule.
    5. The cycle starts over again.(source:wikipedia.org,link:Calvin cycle - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

    Now,we know, cells cannot be produced without the production of protein. and formation of proteins is much much much more complex than carbohydrates. so you can imagine very well what a huge amount of perfectly calculated series of extremely complex chemical reactions it would require to form just a single of the most simple primitive cells.

    So it would require a huge number of perfect coincidences so that the perfect conditions are created so that every extremely complex chemical reaction could occur just in the perfect way,in the perfect amount, in the perfect order,in order to form just a single cell.

    Now let's agree that all these complex reactions occurred just in the perfect ways,in the perfect times,due to huge huge huge number of coincidences,that created the perfect conditions for the complex reactions,and without anyone's guidance,and thus formed the first cell ever. and it was automatically produced from the lifeless elements like oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, iron, phosphorus,potassium etc.

    now imagine if i say i will put a huge container in space where there is no living being,the container almost as huge as the earth,i will fill it with lifeless elements like oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen,iodine, iron, phosphorus, potassium, sodium etc and there will be not even a single living or dead cell there. now if i say after 1 trillion years,you will find the container crawling with insects,what would everyone and even the scientists say?i asked this to a few people and all of them said something like,"they will say,how can it be?are you mad?"

    So how can the insects living around us be produced from non-living things? the living beings can only be formed in this way,only if extremely extremely extremely huge number of coincidences take place,creating perfect conditions for each reaction,which is impossible,and so the formation of living beings from lifeless things is also impossible. and even if these extremely huge number of coincidences occur,it will clearly seem that someone is really guiding it,since coincidences occur once,twice or thrice,not usually a thousand times.

    even though,let's just agree that the living beings were formed just because of big number of coincidences and no one had guided their formation.


    Then in this way due to coincidences,the first cell was formed. And then from this cell new cells started to be produced. And then the newer ones also started reproducing. And thus their number increased.

    Now we know that the plants and and animals are interdependent, one cannot live without the other. The plants produce food,carbohydrates and oxygen by using mainly sunlight,water and carbon-dioxide. And the animals can never survive without the carbohydrate and oxygen produced by plants. But in exchange to this,the animals produce carbon-dioxide and without this carbon-dioxide the plants can also never survive. And again the animals/insects carry the pollens of the flowers of many plants,without which the plants cannot reproduce. And in exchange the animals/insects get nectar and also fruits from the trees that will be produced in the future from these very pollens. Thus they maintain a perfect and complex balance and cooperation which ultimately saves all the organisms,and without which they would have become extinct long ago.

    So now,after the cells were formed due to coincidences,they started to evolve on earth. But,coincidentally, as the cells evolved they divided into two main divisions,the plants and the animals(along with insects). Coincidentally, they evolved from the same group of cells in just such a way,that among the two parts,each part balanced the other so that both of them could survive and none would get extinct.


    It was as if the cells were cooperating with each other,as if they could talk with each other or communicate and express thoughts and as if one part of them said to the other "we will evolve into the plants who will produce food, carbohydrate and oxygen for you and you will evolve into the animals who will produce carbon-dioxide for us and carry our pollens,so that both of us can survive."

    But in reality the cells cannot actually talk with each other,and so,such a perfect cooperation,just because of coincidence does not actually make sense,and so it seems very clearly that someone has guided them for some reason so that they could form a perfect balance,and so that all of them could survive.

    But even though let's just agree that the cells coincidentally evolved into perfectly balanced parts,plants and animals,although they cannot talk to each other,and no one had guided them.


    But then arrived the human kind, who would be completely unique from every other kind on earth. Who would change and break the rules of nature and rule over every other creature even if they are 500 times stronger then them or even if they fly in the air or swim in the water. They had no notable amount of physical strength or special physical abilities like flying,breathing in water,horns,big teeth,extreme flexibility,extreme speed etc. The only difference they had were a few intellectual differences. They had an extreme level of intelligence and they could speak as efficiently as no other kind could, could express almost every one of their thoughts to the others of their kind, coming up with new ideas and solutions for every problem. Only this kind was intelligent enough so that they could soon be able to build palaces that were million times bigger than them in size,fly in the sky,dive under the sea,unlike any other kind.

    Only this kind had the perfect hands that could use a pen to write and draw. No other kind, not even trained monkeys could write or draw so minutely as they could. And without this feature, it was impossible to carry ideas between places that were oceans apart.

    Again, they were the only kind that felt ease in walking and standing completely straight, which also gave them the ability to ride on other animals and also on vehicles invented from the ideas of their own minds/brains.

    But the humans had another unique uniqueness. We know that the animals,plants,insects and all living beings are interdependent,one cannot survive without the other. If you kill all the plants,all the animals will die due to scarcity of oxygen. Again,if you kill all the deer and bulls,the tigers and the lions would soon be dead due to scarcity of food. And then,due to shortage of carbon-dioxide produced by them,the plants would also die and consequently all the living beings would get extinct. And even if you kill all the tigers and lions,there would arise problems. Very soon the number of deer and bulls would increase to a great extent and it would still not stop increasing. But very soon all the grass would be finished. Because the deer and bulls whose numbers cannot be controlled now, will eat all the grass they can reach. But very soon when the grass ends they will also have to die,because no more food is left for them. And then a huge deficit of carbon-dioxide will take place,since the huge number of carbon-dioxide producers are now gone. And again the plants will also die. And we know what will happen after it. Now you might say that there is no deficit of carbon-dioxide because we humans are producing a lot of it. But actually to meet the demand of the plants,you will have to produce much more carbon-dioxide than before,since a huge population of carbon-dioxide producers is now gone. But actually when you start burning more amounts of fuel for producing carbon-dioxide,there arise two problems. Firstly, our fuel reserve will be finished very fast. But secondly, the main problem is,along with carbon-oxide,we will also produce compounds like nitrous oxide,that cause acid rain. And again,you can say that we can start killing deer and bulls to maintain balance,but actually it is almost impossible. Because the deer cannot be killed in huge numbers without cars,since the deer are very fast, but cars cannot travel through jungles easily. And even if they have entered the jungles,the fuels will soon be finished. And if you wish to kill bulls,you will have to go to very harsh and remote places,with many men and cars,where the fuel of your cars will soon be finished running behind the bulls. So,the main thing is that this idea is a bit absurd. And so we can understand that all living beings, plants, animals, insects, birds, all of them are interdependent, none can survive without the other.

    But, the humans were extremely exceptional even in this case. Although they ruled over the other living beings,they were also dependent on them. But unlike every other being,the humans were the only being,on whom no other being depended. We can imagine very well what would happen if all the plants or the deer and the bulls or the tigers or any other species was completely killed. All the other beings along with us would either be destroyed or will face the risk of destruction. But can you imagine what would happen if all the humans are killed? No imbalance would be created in nature,rather it would be saved from imbalance and the other living beings would live even more peacefully. The earth would remain the same as it was even centuries later. No imbalance would be found anywhere. Only the pet animals will face a bit of problem at first(i am joking).

    Now the question is,why is there only one kind or species like the human kind? Why did the other kinds like us not survive? Or why were new kinds like us not formed,who would compete with us for ruling the world or for survival? Why is it that on the planet earth,there is only one kind that can think as good as the humans can,and can speak and express their thoughts? Who can write and draw with their hands?Who ride on other animals and vehicles unlike any other? And who depend on all the other beings but no other living being depends on them for survival and would not face extinction due to their extinction(extinction of humans)?


    If coincidence was so easy to occur thousands and thousands and thousands of times, that living cells can be formed from lifeless things automatically and coincidentally, and perfect balance could be created among so many species coincidentally,so that all of them could survive, why did coincidentally other beings not be formed or could not survive who would be as unique as the humans? Who would compete with them for ruling the world or for survival? Who would be dependent on all other beings but the others would not be dependent on them? Who would change the rules and break the balance of nature?

    This is just an indication and proof that coincidence is not so easy to occur thousands and thousands and thousands of times. Therefore it is clear to me that there was someone who guided every one of these coincidences, in order to create the humans and make them survive,but "in-coincidentally" kept a clear uniqueness in the humans so that it is a clear sign for those who think. So these signs are very clear to me. And so I believe there is someone with complete control and knowledge of everything, who has caused the creation or evolution of the living beings and specially the humans and produced a system so that all of them and specially the humans could survive. That someone must be infinitely powerful, otherwise he could not have done things so precisely. And there must not be anyone or anything similar to him,because I cannot logically imagine a human like me having so much control,power or knowledge.


    And this someone,who is behind everything, is GOD.
    I'm really sorry but this just seems like one gigantic argument to complexity, basically appealing to a human's instinct to think of any complexity (or listed complexities) as "designed", simply because it seems like too much of a coincidence... There is a reason why this type of argument hasn't seen much use in intellectual circles, namely because it is completely countered by the anthropic principle, if you want to know why the argument doesn't work, just research the anthropic principle, it has been long addressed.
    Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion man.
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