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  1. #31
    Super Ape Luke O's Avatar
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    Yasin,

    I think it is best if I try to summarise things.

    We did discuss the likelihood of a series of events that led to life arising from non-life and we agree, in our own ways, that such a series of chemical reactions are improbable. But you then tell me that they are impossible, which is not the same. We can't recreate the exact conditions of the early Earth, as that event happened only once in the Earth's history, but suppose that experiments were carried out to get as close as possible to those conditions. There have been, and the building blocks of life have been made (amino acids, DNA components etc), in a much shorter space of time than what it may have actually taken. This is evidence it can happen, but what if we could also take evidence of all life now as evidence it can (and did) happen? It would mean no need for a god in the model.

    I see no issue with accepting that the improbable can sometimes happen, however unlikely. The impossible can't (as in actually impossible, not a misunderstanding of what was impossible); so if there is a claim that there is something, an entity, that can do the impossible, is that entity also impossible and therefore cannot exist?

  2. #32
    Senior Member Frosty's Avatar
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    First of all... Hey, hey, hey! And second of all, God is as real as you make him to yourself. If you believe strongly in him, then you are more likely to associate daily happenings to his power, which would serve to strengthen a belief that is already there. If you do not believe in him and he does not occupy your mind frequently, then you might not be as familiar with 'having a connection' with God and he might seem more like an idea than a reality. As for whether there is someone actually pulling all the strings and one divine power, well I suppose every religion will claim something different. Everyone tries to make sense of the world in their own way, for some that includes God, and for them I do hope that he is real.
    Likes Bknight, Yaru liked this post

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    First of all... Hey, hey, hey! And second of all, God is as real as you make him to yourself. If you believe strongly in him, then you are more likely to associate daily happenings to his power, which would serve to strengthen a belief that is already there. If you do not believe in him and he does not occupy your mind frequently, then you might not be as familiar with 'having a connection' with God and he might seem more like an idea than a reality. As for whether there is someone actually pulling all the strings and one divine power, well I suppose every religion will claim something different. Everyone tries to make sense of the world in their own way, for some that includes God, and for them I do hope that he is real.
    That is one of the best ways I have seen it worded
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #34
    Super Ape Luke O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    First of all... Hey, hey, hey! And second of all, God is as real as you make him to yourself. If you believe strongly in him, then you are more likely to associate daily happenings to his power, which would serve to strengthen a belief that is already there. If you do not believe in him and he does not occupy your mind frequently, then you might not be as familiar with 'having a connection' with God and he might seem more like an idea than a reality. As for whether there is someone actually pulling all the strings and one divine power, well I suppose every religion will claim something different. Everyone tries to make sense of the world in their own way, for some that includes God, and for them I do hope that he is real.
    I see "god" or "gods" as a primitive way of explaining why things happen the way they do. The problem comes with accepting the answer "Because God did it" and stop exploring/questioning to find out whether there is another answer. Whoever has the first answer to a question does not necessarily have the right answer - if so, gameshows would be kind of dull...

  5. #35
    Lost in the Multiverse Bknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yasin View Post
    Nobody's telling if they like the explanation or not. You could write something like,"i am convinced","i got confused". And if it seems illogical to you,please mention the reasons.
    Sorry; INTJ butting in. Just wanna say, you and I share your opinion. Just too many incredible coincidences and occurrences happened for there not to be something behind it.

    Of course, I was raised Christian, so I guess I'm biased to some degree.

    But regardless, @yasin, welcome aboard, me hearty.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke O View Post
    Yasin,

    I think it is best if I try to summarise things.

    We did discuss the likelihood of a series of events that led to life arising from non-life and we agree, in our own ways, that such a series of chemical reactions are improbable. But you then tell me that they are impossible, which is not the same. We can't recreate the exact conditions of the early Earth, as that event happened only once in the Earth's history, but suppose that experiments were carried out to get as close as possible to those conditions. There have been, and the building blocks of life have been made (amino acids, DNA components etc), in a much shorter space of time than what it may have actually taken. This is evidence it can happen, but what if we could also take evidence of all life now as evidence it can (and did) happen? It would mean no need for a god in the model.

    I see no issue with accepting that the improbable can sometimes happen, however unlikely. The impossible can't (as in actually impossible, not a misunderstanding of what was impossible); so if there is a claim that there is something, an entity, that can do the impossible, is that entity also impossible and therefore cannot exist?
    let me summarize my own explanation.there were mainly three parts in it. the first two parts were used only to describe the complexity of life and the occurrence of innumerable coincidences which created perfect conditions for everything.

    --------SUMMARY-------

    First part, extreme complexity of the creation of life from lifeless things automatically, which makes it extremely improbable. But due to INNUMERABLE COINCIDENCES, ultimately life was formed with the simplest form.

    Second part, creation of two perfectly balanced chief divisions, plants and animals, from the same group of cells, although it is extremely improbable. I have told before, that seeing the extremely perfect balancing of animals and plants, it seems as if they had communicated and planned with each other for their survival, while they actually cannot. And for this the formation of such a balance by dividing chiefly into plants and animals, and again into insects, birds etc is extremely improbable. But due to INNUMERABLE COINCIDENCES they evolved from the same group of cells into plants and animals(chiefly) and thus, such a perfect balance was formed.

    The third part, and this was the MAIN PART, the "in-coincidentally" unique uniqueness and incomparability of the human beings, which broke the rules of coincidence. In the first two parts we saw that innumerable coincidences caused perfect conditions for innumerable reactions, and thus formed life and then formed perfectly balanced plants and animals. Coincidence created perfect conditions for everything in such a way, that millions and millions of species of different plants and animals were formed, which, in this way or that, were dependent on each other. I have already mentioned the names and numbers of a lot of species of different animals and insects(elephants, cats etc), all of which are the results of coincidence. Coincidence could create so many species of different animals and insects, each having atleast one another species comparable with itself and very similar(for example, Loxodonta africana and Elephas maximus, both are species of elephants), and again, coincidence could make all these species interdependent in this way or that. But, only in case of humans, coincidence could not create or make survive a few species comparable and similar to the humans, and again, only in case of the humans, it made them dependent on all the other species, but made no other species dependent on them for survival(explained in my explanation). Does not make sense to me. Why should things be different for us? Why is it only humans who debate about god? If coincidence worked for humans just as it had worked for the others and made life from lifeless and millions and millions of interdependent and comparable species(like Loxodonta africana and Elephas Maximus), there should have been ATLEAST one another species like us, similar and comparable. If we are really not so special and no one had created us, and coincidence(without guidance) is the thing that is working behind every life, then we should also have been playing roles in the ecosystem and without us the environment would have been imbalanced. But this idea of humans naturally playing roles in the ecosystem as other living things is just absurd. Our only role in the system of Earth is to create imbalance. This shows that coincidence did not work for us the way it did for others. But it cannot happen. And for this I called the uniqueness of human beings to be "in-coincidental". But this "in-coincidence" is never supposed to be. But why did it happen? If coincidence occurred so many times without anyone's guidance, there should not have been any "in-coincidence". This clearly shows that there is someone guiding all these, causing coincidences but keeping exceptions only in case of the only being on Earth, that can question the existence of god. This "in-coincidental" exception can only make sense, only if there is a god in the model, who has caused it, for some reason, certainly. Otherwise, this exception does not make sense. So, there is GOD

    -------END OF SUMMARY-------

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke O View Post
    We did discuss the likelihood of a series of events that led to life arising from non-life and we agree, in our own ways, that such a series of chemical reactions are improbable. But you then tell me that they are impossible, which is not the same.
    You have told this two times already. But I have never said or even tried to say that improbable is impossible. I never said that there is god because the creation of life and it's balance is very improbable, until, until the humans made this in-coincidental exception, which does not make a sense without god's existence. If there was ATLEAST one another species like humans, comparable and similar, and if they were playing there own roles in the ecosystem, only then, the inexistence of god would have made sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke O View Post
    so if there is a claim that there is something, an entity, that can do the impossible, is that entity also impossible and therefore cannot exist?
    ---------IS AN ENTITY THAT CAN DO THE IMPOSSIBLE ALSO IMPOSSIBLE?--------

    Think, a thousand years ago I tell an atheist like you, god can make things travel a thousand kilometres in just an hour. He would have said, "Hey mad guy! It's impossible!". Does it really mean it is impossible for humans a thousand years later?

    So it was impossible for humans a thousand years ago and it seemed impossible to them because they did not know how to do it, does not necessarily mean it was actually impossible for god and also for future humans. And so, it is no issue for god to be able to create things that were impossible for humans a thousand years ago, or even now.

    Now you can ask me how god had made all these although it is clearly impossible for us? Recently I was asked this question by an intj friend of mine(he is a Hindu, and Hindu youths have almost no idea about god, I myself am not a hindu). I told him the same thing, it is impossible for me, and I don't how to make something, does it necessarily mean it cannot be made, even by god, whose existence is clearly seen in the coincidences and in-coincidences of nature(explained in my explanation)? Besides, if I could really tell how god made all these, I myself would have been god, which I am not.

    The signs of life clearly show the existence of god(as I explained), but they don't show how god works, so, I would say, I don't know how he does things. But the signs of life do clearly show his existence(as I explained), so I can say why he exists but not how he works.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bknight View Post
    Sorry; INTJ butting in. Just wanna say, you and I share your opinion. Just too many incredible coincidences and occurrences happened for there not to be something behind it.

    Of course, I was raised Christian, so I guess I'm biased to some degree.

    But regardless, @yasin, welcome aboard, me hearty.
    you are welcome to butt in!! i am glad you butted in. i was thinking, is there not a single person on this forum to support me?

    However, I myself was raised in an anti-atheist family, although, unlike me and like the majority of the theists, they just taught me to never question god's existence, this was never satisfactory for me. i believe, logic must be the basis of faith.

    it is true, i was also biased. but, answer-less faith never satisfied me, you know, intps.....

    by the way, my best friend himself is an intj. and i share my ideas with him almost all the time.

    but i don't believe in christianity though. and like this explanation, i also have other explanations(although not typed down yet) for proving why i don't believe in christianity or any other religion beside mine. you know inps, always tending to prove themselves logically correct.

    glad for your hearty and friendly response

    besides, did you realize that the coincidences were just the first two points, and the third and the main point was the exceptions caused by humans?
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, it's a welcome thread (welcome!)... so you'd probably get more feedback if you actually posited this in the appropriate subforum.

    If you want, we can move the post(s) there for you while leaving your welcome stuff here, or we can just move the whole thread, I guess.
    hi!
    can you now move my thread to the nt-rational section, please? i would be glad if you could.(i am afraid though, if my thread gets lost in anyway......)

  9. #39
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    Dang @yasin, what an intense intro post! Welcome!

    Honestly, I haven't read through the whole post an I have to leave in a minute, but any response to the original question other than "we can't really know" is just kidding themselves. Personally, I have my own ideas. I don't think any sort of supreme being exists, but I don't have a way to prove it. It seems to be that the more presumptions that you make, the farther you'll end up getting from the truth. This is one reason why I don't see how religions have any merit to them. You're assuming all of these things about your god, but how did this information come into place? Where did you get the info? Why do you trust the source of the info? Etc.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    Dang @yasin, what an intense intro post! Welcome!

    Honestly, I haven't read through the whole post an I have to leave in a minute, but any response to the original question other than "we can't really know" is just kidding themselves. Personally, I have my own ideas. I don't think any sort of supreme being exists, but I don't have a way to prove it. It seems to be that the more presumptions that you make, the farther you'll end up getting from the truth. This is one reason why I don't see how religions have any merit to them. You're assuming all of these things about your god, but how did this information come into place? Where did you get the info? Why do you trust the source of the info? Etc.
    if you read the whole thread, you will see that, i told atleast 4 times, if you don't like my explanation, please mention logical reasons(this is the fifth time, i just counted it right now).

    besides, i have a guess, you might be an entp(not sure if i am correct).
    and, i did not actually understand which info you are talking about(i wish you make it a bit more clear).

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