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  1. #11
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Hi, yasin!

    You're probably not getting many replies because 1) you're specifically asking for INTP input, 2) you're posting your thoughts here rather than in the philosophy/religion subforum, and 3) that's a looong explanation. Like, I've seen shorter essays, so you might want to preface it with a short summary to get more people interested.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Yes, it's a welcome thread (welcome!)... so you'd probably get more feedback if you actually posited this in the appropriate subforum.

    If you want, we can move the post(s) there for you while leaving your welcome stuff here, or we can just move the whole thread, I guess.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    My feelings are echoed in this video:



    I also think there's an organizing force behind everything. I don't believe in meaninglessness. Maybe meaningless is the reality, but I don't think such an attitude is useful for humans.

    I think people need to create their own meaning in life, lest traditions or society or peers create it for you. That is the only path to freedom, I think.

    You also don't have to reject the past to move into the future. That's a false dichotomy.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    Hi, yasin!

    You're probably not getting many replies because 1) you're specifically asking for INTP input, 2) you're posting your thoughts here rather than in the philosophy/religion subforum, and 3) that's a looong explanation. Like, I've seen shorter essays, so you might want to preface it with a short summary to get more people interested.
    Hi! Thank you very much for your advice.
    1)i am specifically asking for intp input because the other types would comment without mentioning proper reasons for their opposition. And would never accept the truth even if they cannot answer. Besides,before this i have told this to a few non-intps(all of them convinced).

    2)and if i posted this in the religion sector,intps would never see this. Besides, my topic was not religion, rather it was "logical religion".

    3)and the reason i wrote such a big post is because my explanation itself was very big. And without such a big one my explanation was not possible to be explained completly.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yasin View Post
    Hi! Thank you very much for your advice.
    1)i am specifically asking for intp input because the other types would comment without mentioning proper reasons for their opposition. And would never accept the truth even if they cannot answer. Besides,before this i have told this to a few non-intps(all of them convinced).

    2)and if i posted this in the religion sector,intps would never see this. Besides, my topic was not religion, rather it was "logical religion".

    3)and the reason i wrote such a big post is because my explanation itself was very big. And without such a big one my explanation was not possible to be explained completly.
    Posting it in the Welcome section isn't any better.
    People don't read this forum except to say "Hi, welcome to the forum."

    At least post it in the NT section of the forum, if you want more NTs to notice it for certain.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    thank you.i will start a new thread there.

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    THANK YOU VERY MUCH for such appreciation.i would be glad if if could talk to you personally,like,by email

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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    My feelings are echoed in this video:



    I also think there's an organizing force behind everything. I don't believe in meaninglessness. Maybe meaningless is the reality, but I don't think such an attitude is useful for humans.

    I think people need to create their own meaning in life, lest traditions or society or peers create it for you. That is the only path to freedom, I think.

    You also don't have to reject the past to move into the future. That's a false dichotomy.
    thank you very much.i would be glad to talk to you personally, like by email.

  9. #19
    Super Ape Luke O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yasin View Post
    -------does a god really exist?------

    We know that the living world works in a perfect and extremely complex system. extremely complex reactions,both physical and chemical,are always occurring in just the perfect doses in just the right place and time so that the whole universe remains balanced.

    Now let's think about the first being ever created/born/produced. science says that the living beings are formed by various lifeless chemical elements like carbon,hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, iron, iodine, potassium, phosphorus etc(i CERTAINLY agree).but every organic substance,produced by the reactions of these non-living elements,are produced by extremely complex,perfectly calculated and lengthy chemical processes. even if it is just carbohydrates.

    Below i am mentioning just a small portion of the process of producing carbohydrates in short,you can skip this para if you already know how complex the process of producing carbohydrates is. besides,you don't need to understand or remember the reactions mentioned below,they are only mentioned here so that it is clear for you to realize just how complex the reactions can be just for producing carbohydrates,this is the small portion:

    1. Grab: A five-carbon carbon catcher catches one molecule of carbon dioxide and forms a six-carbon molecule.
    2. Split: the enzyme RuBisCO (with the energy of ATP and NADPH molecules) breaks the six-carbon molecule into two equal parts.
    3. Leave: A trio of three carbons leave and become sugar. The other trio moves on to the next step.
    4. Switch: Using ATP and NADPH, the three carbon molecule is changed into a five carbon molecule.
    5. The cycle starts over again.(source:wikipedia.org,link:Calvin cycle - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

    Now,we know, cells cannot be produced without the production of protein. and formation of proteins is much much much more complex than carbohydrates. so you can imagine very well what a huge amount of perfectly calculated series of extremely complex chemical reactions it would require to form just a single of the most simple primitive cells.

    So it would require a huge number of perfect coincidences so that the perfect conditions are created so that every extremely complex chemical reaction could occur just in the perfect way,in the perfect amount, in the perfect order,in order to form just a single cell.
    This is based on an assumption that the first life dealt with matter in the same way as our cells do now. Looking at the earliest life still in existence, the archaebacteria, many of these species use chemosynthesis rather than photosynthesis to gain energy. The reactions that originally occurred may be diverse, slow and may not have even been within a closed unit (i.e. within a lipid membrane). When I say slow, and this is a difficult concept for many, is that the state between lifeless and life, for a self-sustaining unit to occur may have happened gradually over millions of years. And I say this because some people find it hard to imagine what millions of years really looks like, since human civilisation has only been around for thousands. What I propose is a simpler, less efficient system originally, superseded (maybe many times) by more efficient systems until we get to things like the Calvin Cycle.

    The Primordial Soup theory proposes that the early Earth had a chemically reducing atmosphere, and simple organic compounds may have been present. Solar energy, catalysts, other compounds (belched by many volcanoes) and the weather (lightning especially) may have created more ideal conditions for larger and more exotic compounds to be produced. Perhaps a random catalyst that liked to bind atmospheric methane into ethane and so forth, that ethane drifting around until it found another exotic catalyst to oxidise it to ethanol, or strip away two hydrogens to make ethene (which could react with something else and so forth). I'd have to ask an expert on organic chemistry to show me a list of the many catalysts used in industrial processing etc.

    I'd advise you to read up on it. There have also been experiments that produced amino acids from nitrogen-containing compounds, and nucleic acids from ammonium cyanide. There's a Wikipedia article here to summarise the theory - Primordial soup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Now let's agree that all these complex reactions occurred just in the perfect ways,in the perfect times,due to huge huge huge number of coincidences,that created the perfect conditions for the complex reactions,and without anyone's guidance,and thus formed the first cell ever. and it was automatically produced from the lifeless elements like oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, iron, phosphorus,potassium etc.

    now imagine if i say i will put a huge container in space where there is no living being,the container almost as huge as the earth,i will fill it with lifeless elements like oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen,iodine, iron, phosphorus, potassium, sodium etc and there will be not even a single living or dead cell there. now if i say after 1 trillion years,you will find the container crawling with insects,what would everyone and even the scientists say?i asked this to a few people and all of them said something like,"they will say,how can it be?are you mad?"
    That wouldn't be recreating conditions of the early Earth and not a relevant scientific test.

    So how can the insects living around us be produced from non-living things? the living beings can only be formed in this way,only if extremely extremely extremely huge number of coincidences take place,creating perfect conditions for each reaction,which is impossible,and so the formation of living beings from lifeless things is also impossible. and even if these extremely huge number of coincidences occur,it will clearly seem that someone is really guiding it,since coincidences occur once,twice or thrice,not usually a thousand times.

    even though,let's just agree that the living beings were formed just because of big number of coincidences and no one had guided their formation.


    Then in this way due to coincidences,the first cell was formed. And then from this cell new cells started to be produced. And then the newer ones also started reproducing. And thus their number increased.

    Now we know that the plants and and animals are interdependent, one cannot live without the other. The plants produce food,carbohydrates and oxygen by using mainly sunlight,water and carbon-dioxide. And the animals can never survive without the carbohydrate and oxygen produced by plants. But in exchange to this,the animals produce carbon-dioxide and without this carbon-dioxide the plants can also never survive. And again the animals/insects carry the pollens of the flowers of many plants,without which the plants cannot reproduce. And in exchange the animals/insects get nectar and also fruits from the trees that will be produced in the future from these very pollens. Thus they maintain a perfect and complex balance and cooperation which ultimately saves all the organisms,and without which they would have become extinct long ago.
    Just want to stop you there. Plants don't necessarily need animals to survive. The vast majority of modern plants do produce oxygen via photosynthesis, as a waste product - but they also consume oxygen to respire and produce carbon dioxide as a waste product (though admittedly, they are generally a net producer of oxygen). At the time plants arrived (as algae), bacteria were the dominant families (archea/prokaryota), and atmospheric oxygen was extremely rare. The rise of plants would have turned the atmosphere from a reducing to an oxidising one, and kept going. If there were no animals or fungi, and just plants and bacteria, the plants would survive happily in an oxygenated atmosphere and coexist with the bacteria evolved to respire with that oxygen.

    So now,after the cells were formed due to coincidences,they started to evolve on earth. But,coincidentally, as the cells evolved they divided into two main divisions,the plants and the animals(along with insects). Coincidentally, they evolved from the same group of cells in just such a way,that among the two parts,each part balanced the other so that both of them could survive and none would get extinct.


    It was as if the cells were cooperating with each other,as if they could talk with each other or communicate and express thoughts and as if one part of them said to the other "we will evolve into the plants who will produce food, carbohydrate and oxygen for you and you will evolve into the animals who will produce carbon-dioxide for us and carry our pollens,so that both of us can survive."

    But in reality the cells cannot actually talk with each other,and so,such a perfect cooperation,just because of coincidence does not actually make sense,and so it seems very clearly that someone has guided them for some reason so that they could form a perfect balance,and so that all of them could survive.

    But even though let's just agree that the cells coincidentally evolved into perfectly balanced parts,plants and animals,although they cannot talk to each other,and no one had guided them.


    But then arrived the human kind, who would be completely unique from every other kind on earth. Who would change and break the rules of nature and rule over every other creature even if they are 500 times stronger then them or even if they fly in the air or swim in the water. They had no notable amount of physical strength or special physical abilities like flying,breathing in water,horns,big teeth,extreme flexibility,extreme speed etc. The only difference they had were a few intellectual differences. They had an extreme level of intelligence and they could speak as efficiently as no other kind could, could express almost every one of their thoughts to the others of their kind, coming up with new ideas and solutions for every problem. Only this kind was intelligent enough so that they could soon be able to build palaces that were million times bigger than them in size,fly in the sky,dive under the sea,unlike any other kind.

    Only this kind had the perfect hands that could use a pen to write and draw. No other kind, not even trained monkeys could write or draw so minutely as they could. And without this feature, it was impossible to carry ideas between places that were oceans apart.

    Again, they were the only kind that felt ease in walking and standing completely straight, which also gave them the ability to ride on other animals and also on vehicles invented from the ideas of their own minds/brains.

    But the humans had another unique uniqueness. We know that the animals,plants,insects and all living beings are interdependent,one cannot survive without the other. If you kill all the plants,all the animals will die due to scarcity of oxygen. Again,if you kill all the deer and bulls,the tigers and the lions would soon be dead due to scarcity of food. And then,due to shortage of carbon-dioxide produced by them,the plants would also die and consequently all the living beings would get extinct. And even if you kill all the tigers and lions,there would arise problems. Very soon the number of deer and bulls would increase to a great extent and it would still not stop increasing. But very soon all the grass would be finished. Because the deer and bulls whose numbers cannot be controlled now, will eat all the grass they can reach. But very soon when the grass ends they will also have to die,because no more food is left for them. And then a huge deficit of carbon-dioxide will take place,since the huge number of carbon-dioxide producers are now gone. And again the plants will also die. And we know what will happen after it. Now you might say that there is no deficit of carbon-dioxide because we humans are producing a lot of it. But actually to meet the demand of the plants,you will have to produce much more carbon-dioxide than before,since a huge population of carbon-dioxide producers is now gone. But actually when you start burning more amounts of fuel for producing carbon-dioxide,there arise two problems. Firstly, our fuel reserve will be finished very fast. But secondly, the main problem is,along with carbon-oxide,we will also produce compounds like nitrous oxide,that cause acid rain. And again,you can say that we can start killing deer and bulls to maintain balance,but actually it is almost impossible. Because the deer cannot be killed in huge numbers without cars,since the deer are very fast, but cars cannot travel through jungles easily. And even if they have entered the jungles,the fuels will soon be finished. And if you wish to kill bulls,you will have to go to very harsh and remote places,with many men and cars,where the fuel of your cars will soon be finished running behind the bulls. So,the main thing is that this idea is a bit absurd. And so we can understand that all living beings, plants, animals, insects, birds, all of them are interdependent, none can survive without the other.

    But, the humans were extremely exceptional even in this case. Although they ruled over the other living beings,they were also dependent on them. But unlike every other being,the humans were the only being,on whom no other being depended. We can imagine very well what would happen if all the plants or the deer and the bulls or the tigers or any other species was completely killed. All the other beings along with us would either be destroyed or will face the risk of destruction. But can you imagine what would happen if all the humans are killed? No imbalance would be created in nature,rather it would be saved from imbalance and the other living beings would live even more peacefully. The earth would remain the same as it was even centuries later. No imbalance would be found anywhere. Only the pet animals will face a bit of problem at first(i am joking).

    Now the question is,why is there only one kind or species like the human kind? Why did the other kinds like us not survive? Or why were new kinds like us not formed,who would compete with us for ruling the world or for survival? Why is it that on the planet earth,there is only one kind that can think as good as the humans can,and can speak and express their thoughts? Who can write and draw with their hands?Who ride on other animals and vehicles unlike any other? And who depend on all the other beings but no other living being depends on them for survival and would not face extinction due to their extinction(extinction of humans)?
    Natural Selection.

    Evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    If coincidence was so easy to occur thousands and thousands and thousands of times, that living cells can be formed from lifeless things automatically and coincidentally, and perfect balance could be created among so many species coincidentally,so that all of them could survive, why did coincidentally other beings not be formed or could not survive who would be as unique as the humans? Who would compete with them for ruling the world or for survival? Who would be dependent on all other beings but the others would not be dependent on them? Who would change the rules and break the balance of nature?

    This is just an indication and proof that coincidence is not so easy to occur thousands and thousands and thousands of times. Therefore it is clear to me that there was someone who guided every one of these coincidences, in order to create the humans and make them survive,but "in-coincidentally" kept a clear uniqueness in the humans so that it is a clear sign for those who think. So these signs are very clear to me. And so I believe there is someone with complete control and knowledge of everything, who has caused the creation or evolution of the living beings and specially the humans and produced a system so that all of them and specially the humans could survive. That someone must be infinitely powerful, otherwise he could not have done things so precisely. And there must not be anyone or anything similar to him,because I cannot logically imagine a human like me having so much control,power or knowledge.


    And this someone,who is behind everything, is GOD.
    I have heard this argument before many, many times, in different formats. Each time, I asked, if something is extremely unlikely to happen, does it mean it is impossible? What you have actually described above is actually reinforcing this - an unprobable (but not impossible) course of events, yet happening over an extremely long period of time. In simple terms, it's a gambler who has to get that perfect throw of the dice, but has many,many goes to try and get it right, the more goes he has overall, actually the more chance he will get that perfect throw - if you think of it that way, that unprobable course of events isn't that unprobable after all.

    I see "Intelligent Design" as a shortcut, as allowing the gambler to cheat and get the perfect throw first time and get away with it, then move onto roulette and win first time, then onto the poker tables and get dealt a perfect royal flush, as in each win being an immediate change to the Earth. Now the casino usually gets wind of this sort of thing early and swiftly throws out suspected cheaters. Thought you could argue the gambler is God and can do what he wants, but that would make this metaphor too far-fetched. It is wishful thinking, a way of cutting out slow, time consuming processes to get to a quick conclusion, it is easy to stop the thinking processes, stop digging deeper and assume an unknown force was responsible. Ironically, I would take time to know I had the right answer, rather than going for the first answer that came to me.

    I'm still not convinced that there is a god. I suppose what you could explore and tell us is what your concept of god is, what you believe your god has done and why you believe it to be true.

  10. #20
    The Lost One Nico_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke O View Post
    I have heard this argument before many, many times, in different formats. Each time, I asked, if something is extremely unlikely to happen, does it mean it is impossible?
    Exactly. Even if the chance is one in a billion or whatever, we are here and the dice has rolled in our favor. Who knows how many tries the Universe has had before us? Sometime it's bound to happen no matter the odds, it's just a coincidence that it was us.

    Add to that, I'm an agnostic. I really don't know and I rarely care since everything related to this kind of matters is impossible to know.
    "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd."
    - Bernard Russell
    Likes Luke O liked this post

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