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  1. #41
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    My current boss will simply nitpick it to death, and make sure to find some rule that it violates in order to say "no".
    I second this observation. I've had my share of STJ bosses and if you can present something that is nitpick IMMUNE is when they finally pull the trigger and go all in.

    What I've found to be somewhat effective is to reframe the issue into: Presume there is no fail safe idea, but a decision MUST be made. WHICH idea then is likely it have the least amount of negative impact. This allows them to overcome their risk aversion by incorporating 'potential negatives' into the outcome expectation. Getting them to make a decision then becomes the issue, which can then be a matter of presentation of the facts. In other words give an STJ all the time in the world to come up with an idea/solution and they will spend all that time nitpicking, but remove that luxury of time via deadline/time pressure and then the calculus changes and they will focus on reducing negative impact... via nitpicking... lmao, but hey, at least they are "moving". Your thoughts on this?

    The most annoying/sometimes fun thing is when an STJ asks for advise, they are really really good at shooting any and every idea you present down, which makes you wanna strangle them for having asked for advise in the first place :P

    This imo is why STJ's while slow to adopt a new thought/system/methods but are way more accurate than NTJ's who will often go with their gut. STJ's = slow & high accuracy %, NTJ's = fast & moderately high accuracy %
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft
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  2. #42
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    ...I married one.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  3. #43
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think what you mean is that certainty does not equal fact if something is an untested/unverified hypothesis.

    I've done a lot of tests online and read a lot of sources before I concluded that I was NT, although all those seperate sources which did not verify the SJ idea are easily dismissed by anyone who is plugging away at that, the suggestion that SJs are conservative and NTs are either corporate libertarian or liberal visionaries I think is reflection of this forum too and in part why the labelling of people happens as it does, although there's two or three other things in play too, knowledge of peoples professions, also knowledge of what people believe they themselves to be and therefore if they clash with others what they believe those others "ought" to be according to their conclusions about themselves.
    I think you made some good points here, but I also think you're placing too much importance on political spectrums. I'm similar to you in that I don't think that type necessitates the politics of the individual and there is more than a wide spectrum amongst people.

    There might be trends and tendencies, but I think this is more to the way we now group political views as above the individual view in terms of importance. Politics is very human and has been around with us for...probably as long as we (or our closest link/s) have existed but over time it has become more and more polarised and you could easily list a set of bullet points and then ask people to pinpoint their political spectrum and I would place a bet in favour of very clear divides. This is nothing new with people, we categorise and generalise for various reasons of convenience.

    However this is also where the tendency towards extreme stereotypes comes from and it's important to remember that a stereotype can never be true. It's about repeating, observable patterns but those patterns should not be the reason in and of themselves; what's more important is the why that sits behind them.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think what you mean is that certainty does not equal fact if something is an untested/unverified hypothesis.

    I've done a lot of tests online and read a lot of sources before I concluded that I was NT, although all those seperate sources which did not verify the SJ idea are easily dismissed by anyone who is plugging away at that, the suggestion that SJs are conservative and NTs are either corporate libertarian or liberal visionaries I think is reflection of this forum too and in part why the labelling of people happens as it does, although there's two or three other things in play too, knowledge of peoples professions, also knowledge of what people believe they themselves to be and therefore if they clash with others what they believe those others "ought" to be according to their conclusions about themselves.

    That's all brimming with confirmation bias. Its fair to ask why would one position suffer from the confirmation bias while others wouldnt, all I could say is that I've tested on a wide variety of different available quizes on and off line as the same, the I/E is borderline and that's the only thing which changes, and to my mind that is about as scientific, in terms of self-report tests, as you can get, more so than "from the little I've seen of you and know of you on this forum I think", kind of thing.

    The role anyone finds themselves in can alter this, I read about teams in my work completing MBTI quizes and entire groups of people testing as exactly the same, ie ESTJ or ESFJ, which to my mind indicated little more than the candidates were thinking hard about what they thought the desired outcome would be and gamed the quizes to demonstrate that they were extroverted, sensitive, feeling and upheld the rules and expectations of their agency.
    This is pretty much the whole reason I think MBTI tests will never work or be safe from corruption.


    As an addendum, the way "Intuition" is described almost always means it will be treated as some "special power," the title of which you're expected to "earn" by being an "innovator" or a "deep thinker." Also, modern social structures usually necessitate people to adapt their lifestyles to match those commonly associated with a "judger."

  5. #45
    Injustice Needs To stoP RandomINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    Isn't SJ like maybe 35%ish of the population? I don't think "most" people would count. Now if we were talking all sensors I'd buy more into that question.
    I believe in terms of how common, I'd say it's more like this:
    SJ(45%) > SP(35%) > NT(10%) = NF(10%)
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  6. #46
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnus View Post
    This is pretty much the whole reason I think MBTI tests will never work or be safe from corruption.
    Work in what way? They open conversations (the types that is) and free people up from long winded inaccurate descriptions by starting with the words of someone more eloquent.

    As boxes to confine people though, they stink.

    As an addendum, the way "Intuition" is described almost always means it will be treated as some "special power," the title of which you're expected to "earn" by being an "innovator" or a "deep thinker." Also, modern social structures usually necessitate people to adapt their lifestyles to match those commonly associated with a "judger."
    Intuition is often described in the light of competition against the perceived more natural sensing. Adequately explained Isles nothing more than having more than one index to your memories and thoughts. It often takes up more brain space, hence less good at recalling reams of information, but allows the person to match information in many ways.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Work in what way? They open conversations (the types that is) and free people up from long winded inaccurate descriptions by starting with the words of someone more eloquent.

    "I have a job, I'm a Judger."
    "I have functional reward centers in my brain and I don't spout textwalls of pretentious bullshit, must be a Sensor."
    "I'm dumb, must be a Sensor."
    "ESTJs
    do things, lololololzz I'm such a ESTJ."
    "ESFJs do things like ESTJs but they also have flowers and dresses, must be ESFJ."



    My point is, the ways in which the average person is introduced to MBTI are far too rudimentary and vapid. Far too many people only scratch the surface depth of what personality type really is and use it as nothing more than a lighthearted popcorny way to compliment each other about banal character traits that could just as easily develop NTR.
    Too many of the definitions of traits are "defined" in terms of singsongy self-talk: it's about how lurrrrrvvvly and caring about every fucking ant on the sidewalk if you're a Feeler, and it's about how manly and hardworking and tough you are if you're a Thinker.

    But there's rarely an in-depth explanation of the Functions or why the categorical preferences themselves prompt people, psychologically, to behave in ways associated with the stereotypes, stereotypes that can easily be sidestepped, leading to potential corruption of perception of MBTI to a newcomer.



    I know the functions aren't Word of God or anything, but understanding the simple logic of how the functions would hypothetically work would at least give you some perspective of why an Fi-dom would do X, why an Si-PoLR would do Y, all under the given circumstances.



    The reason I'm saying all this is because the "statistics" of prevalence of certain MBTI types within the population are based on tests given to people new to MBTI, people who have no knowledge of the functions, people who Forer Effect the test to obsoletion, who attribute their type preferences to common psychological experiences instead of those that match the EXTREMELY SPECIFIC PARAMETERS of Jungian Cognitive Functions. I know the functions might not really be there, but if you are type xxFP or xxTJ then you will not display X, X, or X behaviors under condition Y, if you are xxNJ or xxSP you will not do M under conditions N, N, or N, etc.



    The reason I shat out this wall of exhausted emotional banter is because 2/3 of everything ever written about MBTI at all is emotional circlejerking over the misapplication of exaggerated NTR positive traits, deliberately applied to certain types in a way that seems desirable to the individual upon first glance. It's maddenning, and the end result is a complete screw with the wisdom of the system that MBTI could be.

  8. #48
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnus View Post

    "I have a job, I'm a Judger."
    "I have functional reward centers in my brain and I don't spout textwalls of pretentious bullshit, must be a Sensor."
    "I'm dumb, must be a Sensor."
    "ESTJs
    do things, lololololzz I'm such a ESTJ."
    "ESFJs do things like ESTJs but they also have flowers and dresses, must be ESFJ."



    My point is, the ways in which the average person is introduced to MBTI are far too rudimentary and vapid. Far too many people only scratch the surface depth of what personality type really is and use it as nothing more than a lighthearted popcorny way to compliment each other about banal character traits that could just as easily develop NTR.
    Too many of the definitions of traits are "defined" in terms of singsongy self-talk: it's about how lurrrrrvvvly and caring about every fucking ant on the sidewalk if you're a Feeler, and it's about how manly and hardworking and tough you are if you're a Thinker.

    But there's rarely an in-depth explanation of the Functions or why the categorical preferences themselves prompt people, psychologically, to behave in ways associated with the stereotypes, stereotypes that can easily be sidestepped, leading to potential corruption of perception of MBTI to a newcomer.
    I concur. I wince at half the threads on type here. The little knowledge is padded by such random rubbish it's like talking to people in a foreign tongue half the time. Introverts feel tired after having spoken to a group of people, extrovert get cabin fever... All nonsense without the qualifiers and context.
    I know the functions aren't Word of God or anything, but understanding the simple logic of how the functions would hypothetically work would at least give you some perspective of why an Fi-dom would do X, why an Si-PoLR would do Y, all under the given circumstances.
    Hadn't noticed my predictive text failure...

    Perspective, yes. The problem at the heart of all this is people come in expecting answers when really they're just learning the language needed to understand what questions to ask.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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  9. #49
    Senior Member great_bay's Avatar
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    Can we actually have discussions instead of disdaining posts.

    Anyways, I feel like I relate to ISFJ's the most because we have all the same function in different order. We're both users of Si and Ti. It's interesting to watch coming to same conclusion on things.

  10. #50
    climb on Showbread's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    I believe in terms of how common, I'd say it's more like this:
    SJ(45%) > SP(35%) > NT(10%) = NF(10%)
    I must be an absolute NF magnet then. INFJ mom, INFP brother, INFP grandmother, two INFP roommates, an ENFJ roommate, ENFx friend, INFJ high school best friend, the list goes on...

    IME, SP is less common than NF. But, maybe I'm just running with the wrong crowd.
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