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Thread: Fictional NTs

  1. #131
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Would this not be a facet of N and not P?
    Would not P be the recognition of plans not surviving first contact with the enemy and hence being more ready to alter their strategy in response to change?
    No Xander.
    It is a facet of P.

  2. #132
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    No Xander.
    It is a facet of P.
    I think that the INTJ who designs the efficient solution taking into account all the outlying factors would disagree with a roll of the eyes.

    The field marshal ENTJ who has just designed and executed the plan which will bring an entire company into line would also inform you curtly that your wrong.

    The ESTP who has just missed that the pan of water she put on to boil will only take three more minutes to boil over when she disappears off for "just 5 minutes" would also, after discussion, disagree that they had the whole picture in their heads.

    Perhaps your definition of the overall picture is different, I don't know but your definition does not rhyme up with the MBTI as I have seen so far. N is patterns, S is specifics.. you can't see patterns unless you zoom out to a wider angle.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #133
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    In Defense of Sherlock Holmes as an ISTP

    Since I think we can all agree that Sherlock is an introvert with a preference for thinking, I will address the two remaining aspects of his psychological type people tend to disagree on: whether he is a sensate or an intuitor, and what the orientation of his traits are. (i.e. J versus P)

    On sensing versus intuition, my premises are as follows:

    1.) Sensing is generally systematic in approach, where Intuition is nonlinear.
    2.) Sensing is deductive in nature, whereas Intuition is inductive in nature.

    Even casual fans are familiar with Sherlock's famous quote, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." This is demonstrative and exemplary of the systematic, step-by-step approach Sherlock took in unraveling the mysteries. In every one of his adventures, Sherlock examined all of the clues and data, eliminated the impossible, and, when necessary, again went out and sought the remaining data he needed to narrow it down to a single possibility. This is deductive reasoning.

    In fact, Sherlock went to great extents in actively thwarting inductions and theories, often having conversations on theater, music, and other miscellany with Watson to avoid drawing any inductions prior to accumulating all of the facts. Intuitive thinkers can't help but draw inferences; this is what Intuition does! An excellent example of an INTP sleuth would be L from Death Note. (I must confess, however, that I somewhat disliked the show since L's inferences were far too often based on circumstantial evidence that he had simply used to bolster his internal model.)

    On extroverted judging functions (J) versus introverted judging functions (P), my premises are as follows:

    1.) Extroverted judgers (Js) are concerned with using their perceptions to arrange the external world of people and things, whereas introverted judgers (Ps) are concerned with using their perceptions to arrange the internal world of thoughts and ideas.
    2.) To wit, Ps tend to be "in it for the game" people, whereas Js are generally "in it for the payoffs" people.

    Sherlock is, beyond any shadow of a doubt, in his profession for the love of the game. This is evidenced by his impatience and depression when he has no cases to occupy him and to exercise his abilities upon. Further, he has no interest in glory or accolades. Addressing premise number one, he is perfectly content, to come in, do his job, and fade into the background. (After putting on a bit of a show of it, mind you. He was a bit of a show-boater, to be sure.) He never shows any inclination whatsoever to exercise control on the external world in any large way.

    (One could make the argument that taking care of Moriarty was, in a way, exercising control on the external world, but I think even more pointedly Moriarty represented the Ultimate Game to Sherlock, and the betterment of London was a side benefit. Also, to get a bit meta, Doyle had originally intended for Sherlock's battle with Moriarty to be the end of him, so he concocted a villain worthy of taking Sherlock's life.)

    More circumstantially, Sherlock's proclivity for sensual pleasures such as tobacco and cocaine, not to mention his tolerance for abject slovenliness, further lead me to believe him to be a P. (Keep in mind this was the Victorian era; during the Victorian era, it was perfectly socially acceptable to dope up before breakfast and pimp-slap your hired help for looking at you wrong, but men and women were expected to be chaperoned on dates. Had the times been different, it's not extreme to think Sherlock may have been a bit the Lothario.)

    These are the reasons I feel Sherlock is an ISTP. If you're looking for an INTP in the Holmes universe, I would suggest that his older brother Mycroft is an excellent example. Sherlock even goes so far as to say that he suspects Mycroft of being the more intellectually capable of the two, so there you go!

    (As for why I, an INTJ, took Mycroft as an avatar despite believing him to be an INTP, I leave to you to speculate upon.)
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  4. #134
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    Take a look at this site.

  5. #135
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I think that the INTJ who designs the efficient solution taking into account all the outlying factors would disagree with a roll of the eyes.

    The field marshal ENTJ who has just designed and executed the plan which will bring an entire company into line would also inform you curtly that your wrong.

    The ESTP who has just missed that the pan of water she put on to boil will only take three more minutes to boil over when she disappears off for "just 5 minutes" would also, after discussion, disagree that they had the whole picture in their heads.

    Perhaps your definition of the overall picture is different, I don't know but your definition does not rhyme up with the MBTI as I have seen so far. N is patterns, S is specifics.. you can't see patterns unless you zoom out to a wider angle.
    The ESTP disappears from the kitchen because she is impatient and does not want to wait for the coffee or eggs or whatever she has in the pan.

    Patience is a wonderful thing but it is not grand strategy.

    My father was an INTJ and he sat down in the kitchen and waited for one hour for the pan to boil. Guess why the thing took an hour?

    I do not wait in the kitchen although my pan boils in 30 seconds. Guess why it takes only 30 seconds to boil over?

  6. #136
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Mycroft is reported as an INTJ where I read it (if I can dig back that far into my attic).

    Some of the things that make people think Holmes is other than INTP are actually discipline techniques. For example to avoid getting to the stage where he gets caught in inductive logic, he tells himself and then others to use deduction and is fascinated by it's value. An ISTP would think deduction mundane surely as it is their primary function (perhaps not literally). IT would be more inline with Homes being an ISTP if he exclaimed when people did not use deduction and not to encourage them to use it. After all the man had all the social skills of an IxTP!!

    Anther thing to watch out for is that although Holmes was reported as a master of deduction he was infact a master of blending induction with deduction. His mental leaps are quite obviously intuitive when you try to consider how he arrives at his conclusions about where people have been etc. Sure there's the fantasy bit about being able to recognise dog poo that has eaten apples from the west side of the thames as opposed to the east side but aside from that he assembled pictures of people by analysing what they are now and looking at the overall picture.

    I think that basically Holmes was an INTP in caricature but that many of his reported talents rely heavily on a sensors detail focused capabilities. That is probably where the character fails to encapsulate a rounded human being, as with 99% of characters in novels & films.

    However the man himself was most assuredly an INTP in mannerism and lifestyle. The whole drugs thing was to quiet his mind, more discipline. The room was a mess because he saw not point to working towards it being otherwise (an NT trait know as "what for?"). Also he had stuff piled all over the place in that very INTP style of putting the mess in a corner where it becomes invisible for six months and then you simply move it to a different corner for the next six months.

    However, having said all of this we can go only so far into this as the man was only ever a character in a guys head. Idolised and made larger than life.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #137
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    The ESTP disappears from the kitchen because she is impatient and does not want to wait for the coffee or eggs or whatever she has in the pan.

    Patience is a wonderful thing but it is not grand strategy.

    My father was an INTJ and he sat down in the kitchen and waited for one hour for the pan to boil. Guess why the thing took an hour?

    I do not wait in the kitchen although my pan boils in 30 seconds. Guess why it takes only 30 seconds to boil over?
    ENTJs are master strategists, this would be improbable were it not for their vision of the overall picture and plan.

    INTJs are obsessed with efficiency, that rarely lies within the details and can even less be seen from looking at the details. No the evidence of inefficiency lies in the pattern.

    ENFJs also grasp the larger picture and hence why my friend Mike needs next to no details to figure me out. He has the concept that is me in his head. All he needs is a small brief on the circumstances.

    I'm afraid an ESTP is living NOW. What happens next doesn't exist yet and they act as such. The big picture is past, present AND future, they struggle to see it.

    I am surprised you fight this Wildcat. This is why I think you are defining "big picture" thinking somehow differently. I am not sure how to progress to finding out and comparing definitions though.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #138
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    ENTJs are master strategists, this would be improbable were it not for their vision of the overall picture and plan.

    INTJs are obsessed with efficiency, that rarely lies within the details and can even less be seen from looking at the details. No the evidence of inefficiency lies in the pattern.

    ENFJs also grasp the larger picture and hence why my friend Mike needs next to no details to figure me out. He has the concept that is me in his head. All he needs is a small brief on the circumstances.

    I'm afraid an ESTP is living NOW. What happens next doesn't exist yet and they act as such. The big picture is past, present AND future, they struggle to see it.

    I am surprised you fight this Wildcat. This is why I think you are defining "big picture" thinking somehow differently. I am not sure how to progress to finding out and comparing definitions though.
    Are we discussing the N/S or the J/P thing?

    Mycroft is right about the functions. You know that.

    Still I do not buy that Holmes was an ISTP.

    He was INTP for sure. You cannot avoid deduction in life. It is boring I know.
    Holmes had the landlady to do the boring stuff. She was a friendly creature.
    And Watson- he deducted and deducted and did not get anywhere.

    I did not see the topic as a conversation of a big picture but simply as to where you start to roll the mess. Down or up.
    Deduction is from down up. Induction is from up down.

  9. #139
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Are we discussing the N/S or the J/P thing?

    Mycroft is right about the functions. You know that.

    Still I do not buy that Holmes was an ISTP.

    He was INTP for sure. You cannot avoid deduction in life. It is boring I know.
    Holmes had the landlady to do the boring stuff. She was a friendly creature.
    And Watson- he deducted and deducted and did not get anywhere.

    I did not see the topic as a conversation of a big picture but simply as to where you start to roll the mess. Down or up.
    Deduction is from down up. Induction is from up down.
    J/P You said that big picture thinking was part of P not of N. I disagreed. The Holmes thing is another conversation entirely.

    Oh and from the big picture Deduction is down and Induction is up. Pedantry..perhaps but still.

    Deduction is carving the features of your snowman from a block of snow.
    Induction is adding extra snow to make the features.

    Induction builds, deduction destroys.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #140
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    Just to be clear, NTs use deductive reasoning and NFs use inductive.

    In detective work, for example, you need to use analytic deductive reasoning to come up with new hypothetical understandings -- interpreting meaning from the data brought in by the five senses. So an N, I think, could have just as much attention to detail as the S, the difference being the N's hypothesis.

    And may I remind you that Sherlock Holmes is known for intellectual prowess -- which includes ability to think abstractly.

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