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[INTJ] Why are INTJs so enigmatic?

grey_beard

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[MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] believes very much in 'saying what you mean, and meaning what you say'. I totally agree with that idea. I can't stand it when people don't speak plainly, or are purposely cryptic.

But there's a difference between plain-spoken and outspoken. I am plain-spoken, but I'm definitely not outspoken.

Very well put. +1
 

great_bay

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If one asks what INTJ's are thinking, a beam would appear from their forehead and encase the questioner in a endless void.
 

á´…eparted

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I suppose it then comes down to your definition of "needless". Sometimes my idea can only or best be explained through metaphor. I can and will attempt a more straightforward approach, but so much is lost in translation, it almost isn't the original idea any longer. I tend to reserve being deliberately cryptic, indirect, or enigmatic for cases when someone is being obnoxious, pushy, just won't take "no" for an answer; or cases where an outright "no" might be too risky, but I need to steer the other person away from a certain topic or line of questioning a bit more . . . indirectly.

I prefer clear and straightforward communication as well, when I have something to say to someone, and they have something to say to me. I guess if we don't, there's no need to be communicating to begin with.

I don't think I am explaining myself clearly, I appologize. At the end of the day we just have very different ways of communicating and deeming what is important or not.

I understand and agree with what you're saying. There is a point and time to being cryptic if someone is being difficult or proves to be poor to associate with. Generally I just don't acknowledge them and minimize all contact to make it as clear as possible that I want to be left alone or for them to go away. I'll specifiy in a rep someone who is a prime example of needlessly cryptic, as I think that will make it more clear of what lines I take issue with. In a way it sort of relates to spacyness as well which I am equally frustrated by.

I think the big divide for us is, I enjoy chit-chat and I see it as something worth engaging in, and you generally don't. I just get put off when people are bothered by it, for the sheer notion that it's chit-chat. Granted, I won't try if they put off the vibe of not liking it.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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A true INTJ is very enigmatic because similar to INFJs they have interesting inner dichotomies to reconcile between the extremely abstract and the extremely concrete.
 

ceecee

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What BadOctopus said. What truly bothers me is people being needlessly crypic, indirect, and metaphorical with their speaking, communicating, and sharing. But being heavily taciturn bothers me as well.

I understand this. I have no issue with something that's difficult to explain or relate and doing it in a metaphoric way. I have an issue with people who don't feel speaking clearly is even required on their part, it's the responsibility of the person listening to them to sort it out. OTOH, there are people who don't want to hear and don't listen, no matter how clear you present things.

It's important to me to make myself understood and I try to avoid anything cryptic or metaphoric and do my best to tailor what I say to the listener. Mostly because I do not want to explain it again. There are other times, none of this effort works and I simply cut my losses.

I'm not naturally great at conversation but it is something I have worked at for a long time and I stick with plain, direct speaking because I am naturally good at that. It may not be how or what a person wants to hear, but it's rarely misunderstood.
 

DarkestSunlight

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I talk when I have something to say, and I listen when someone intelligent with information I don't already have talks. If it's not directly relevant I don't say anything. If it can be omitted I omit. If someone is not interesting to me it's unlikely I will engage with them at all - although I'm very capable if they are the gate-keepers to some ploy I have to attain something I want.
 

DarkestSunlight

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Communication gets me down.

It's never accurate enough and there is always an unnecessary level of misunderstanding. No wonder some people prefer silence.

After all what is really happening is the transformation of the experience of being you into language. But if people aren't ready or willing to hear you then what is the fucking point.

But if people aren't ready or willing to hear you then what is the fucking point. <<<That
 

Rambling

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The problem (as I see it) is that the holistic nature of first seeing then summarising the whole of a jigsaw internally, giving correct weighting to each factor involved. Trying to convey the whole thing to someone else requires:
a) either the painstaking hours-long approach of the Paint-by-Numbers set...'Starting in top left corner, make a small patch of blue'; in this approach the listener gets bored before the centre of the argument is even *reached* or
b) the 'enigmatic' or 'I know' approach, summarising the whole jigsaw picture in one sentence 'It's a picture of a diesel train at Colombia station, with several people about to board.'; the listener finds this enigmatic even if it is correct, since the INTJ won't bother with supporting explanations (see (a) for why these don't work).
 

grey_beard

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The problem (as I see it) is that the holistic nature of first seeing then summarising the whole of a jigsaw internally, giving correct weighting to each factor involved. Trying to convey the whole thing to someone else requires:
a) either the painstaking hours-long approach of the Paint-by-Numbers set...'Starting in top left corner, make a small patch of blue'; in this approach the listener gets bored before the centre of the argument is even *reached* or
b) the 'enigmatic' or 'I know' approach, summarising the whole jigsaw picture in one sentence 'It's a picture of a diesel train at Colombia station, with several people about to board.'; the listener finds this enigmatic even if it is correct, since the INTJ won't bother with supporting explanations (see (a) for why these don't work).

To quote from Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising: "Well done, Andrushka!"
 

Destiny

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It's their Ni and Fi combination that makes them enigmatic. Their Ni gives them lots of insights that seems to appear from nowhere, while the Fi in them makes them hold back from expressing their opinions.

Hmm nevermind, I think I will come back to this thread again later, I am so sleepy right now and I can't write much.
 

INTP

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It's their Ni and Fi combination that makes them enigmatic. Their Ni gives them lots of insights that seems to appear from nowhere, while the Fi in them makes them hold back from expressing their opinions.

Hmm nevermind, I think I will come back to this thread again later, I am so sleepy right now and I can't write much.

INTJ holding back an opinion? :D

I guess that might happen if they are scared of you judging them and being afraid of how you see them and thus holding back in that way(and most likely in many major aspects of their personality as well), but in those cases its not the real person you see, and most likely they never showed you their true nature in many other ways as well.
 

BadOctopus

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INTJ holding back an opinion? :D
That'd be a first. ;)

Actually, sometimes I am reluctant to share my thoughts, if I know that they probably won't be well received. It's sort of a Catch-22 for INTJs. People complain that they can't tell what you're thinking, but when you do say what you're thinking, people complain that you're too blunt and insensitive. You can never win.
 

INTP

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That'd be a first. ;)

Actually, sometimes I am reluctant to share my thoughts, if I know that they probably won't be well received. It's sort of a Catch-22 for INTJs. People complain that they can't tell what you're thinking, but when you do say what you're thinking, people complain that you're too blunt and insensitive. You can never win.

There is a way. You need to scare the sort of people away who doesent like your opinions by saying them out loud. Then only the strongest will survive your company and then you can freely express your opinions and win :yes:
 

Coriolis

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There is a way. You need to scare the sort of people away who doesent like your opinions by saying them out loud. Then only the strongest will survive your company and then you can freely express your opinions and win :yes:
Pretty much. I'm quite willing to keep my opinions to myself in the interests of not causing needless fuss or conflict. If someone asks, however, all bets are off and they can take what they get. It will be civil and as constructive as I can make it, but it will be completely candid.
 

evilrubberduckie

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What type of INTJ's are you communicating with? INTJ's are easy to understand. They are just so blunt, it goes over most people heads. Since society has taught most to "Read between the lines."

Dont trust INTj's body language
Ignore their tone of voice
just take their words literally. It's seriously not that hard.

Now the FJ's? (or is it xSxJ. I mix them up) now THAT'S hard.
 

Opal

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What type of INTJ's are you communicating with? INTJ's are easy to understand. They are just so blunt, it goes over most people heads. Since society has taught most to "Read between the lines."

Dont trust INTj's body language
Ignore their tone of voice
just take their words literally. It's seriously not that hard.

Now the FJ's? (or is it xSxJ. I mix them up) now THAT'S hard.

Hmm... I think Ni, by definition, is enigmatic (forming a deeply personal, abstract interpretation of life). INJs may be direct and concise at times, but still dwell primarily in Ni.
 

evilrubberduckie

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Hmm... I think Ni, by definition, is enigmatic (forming a deeply personal, abstract interpretation of life). They may be concise and direct at times, but still dwell primarily in Ni.

and? When they do choose to speak, it is understandable. It's not like they talk in Shakespearean every time they open their pretty mouths. Or alien.

INTJ's arent the type to bullshit. Straight to the point. You can easily see it through conversation. It's not like they say ONE thing but they mean something completely different and expect you to understand what they are trying to get through with body language, tone, and stupid difficult rules society builds with ways to converse with people.
 

Opal

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and? When they do choose to speak, it is understandable. It's not like they talk in Shakespearean every time they open their pretty mouths. Or alien.

INTJ's arent the type to bullshit. Straight to the point. You can easily see it through conversation. It's not like they say ONE thing but they mean something completely different and expect you to understand what they are trying to get through with body language, tone, and stupid difficult rules society builds with ways to converse with people.

Ah, I think Te/Fi make for directness and honesty in communication. Peering into one's mind might prove more difficult, though, because it's less anchored in physical happenings than other types'.
 

evilrubberduckie

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Ah, I think Te/Fi make for directness and honesty in communication. Peering into one's mind might prove more difficult, though, because they're less anchored in physical reality than other types'.

Why would put yourself through the torture of peering through ANYONE'S mind when talking to them? No matter how hard you try to put yourself in someone elses shoes, the shoe is still not going to fit perfectly. Why bother? More hassle then worth.
 
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