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  1. #31
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    Well, his post made perfect sense to me and probably to other hard-core introverts as well. Sometimes the only way to get out and do things and practice self-preservation at the same time is to wear a "social" mask. You're making a false assumption that the mask involves lying and getting over on other people. Ninety percent of people accept the mask at face value and don't know (or care to know) any better.

    The "just be yourself" motto is so tired. A lot of introverts have no desire for everyone to view their true self.
    That's interesting, because so much of the criticism that introverts level at extraverts is based on a perception that extraverts are 'fake' somehow...

    I didn't mean anyway, getting over on other people (if I've got the phrase right, never heard it before so just guessing what it means from context). I just meant that if you're lonely because you've no intimacy or friendship with other people, then a way to solve that is to get OVER that fear that leads to the feeling that you NEED to self-preserve, and learn to actually SHARE yourself with another person. It doesn't help a person who feels lonely to tell them to go out and wear a mask cos then at least they can be with people, IMO that will just make them feel even worse when they find that doing that, they still feel lonely because they're not giving anyone anything to gel with.

    I don't quite get what it is the dude, or you, or other introverts in your interpretation, actually want from 'people'. It's like you reserve the right to hold yourself back and not really give any more than you feel like giving, whilst also wanting other people to give of themselves to you whatever it is you want them to give, so you don't feel lonely, at your personal convenience...

    I'm not judging, I'm just trying to understand... cos the way you put it and the way the OP puts it makes introverts look rather fake and selfish in their approach to other people (to me at least), and yet I know so many introverts and they're not like that, meaning I must've got my wires crossed somewhere
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  2. #32
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    Oh and also, I've no problem with people being recluses if that's what they want to do, but I don't think self-deception helps anyone really in their personal journey.

    I reckon, if you're going to be a recluse in an ivory tower and have that attitude, then that's fine, go ahead and I bless you all the way, if that's what makes you happy and you're not harming anyone, I've no problem with it and I'll defend your right to do so against anyone who tries to pull you out into this mean old world.

    But don't lie to yourself and don't be surprised when you come down from the tower to buy some eggs and find the rest of the world doesn't buy the idea that it's because you're some kind of superior being who can't relate to us because you're so wayyyy above us puny mortals and all that crud.

    Just admit that it's because you're afraid. There's nothing wrong with being afraid, and you're so damn afraid you can't even admit you're afraid, cos you're afraid of that too. You're so afraid of it that even me saying you are, you're probably taking as an insult or an attack because you think it's so damn terrible to have feelings, you can't imagine how someone seeing that you do and saying so can be anything but an attack.

    Dammit, Einstein was fucking smart, but he still had friends and related to people. Noel Coward and Oscar Wilde, Stephen Fry, Stephen Hawking and countless other extremely smart people have managed to have social lives and in fact be well loved by society.

    Just y'know, because you've got this vested interest in believing it's all because you're so smart and superior, because you're afraid of admitting you're afraid, it's really a bit much to expect that the rest of the world is going to buy this flimsy idea that you can only buy with the power of denial.

    And I thought INTJ's were supposed to be so self-aware!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  3. #33
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    I don't know if this is related to introversion or not but I will share my perspective on not revealing too much of myself.

    For me it is a careful balancing act how much I reveal. I don't think of it so much in terms of being an introvert as being different. Not necessarily being a rare personality type, but having values, ideals, interest, etc. that are different from most people. I have political and religious view that are not exactly mainstream, I am into metaphyscial things, none of the music I listen to is on the radio, I rarely find anything I like on network TV, I like to read comics, I spend more money art and craft supplies than I do for clothing, I play D&D. Okay really nothing too shocking, yet it seems like every time one of these things comes up (unless I am with like minded people) I get a negative reaction. Sometimes it will be just a look or tone of voice. Sometimes a minor comment. Sometimes people will go on about and make me act like a freak or weirdo or worse. Sometimes people will not have a big reaction, but will treat me differnt afterward.

    Now my social skills are not the great to start with. I really have to work at maintaining even a casual relationship, such as getting along with co-workers. I really feel like my best chance is to downplay some of my weirdness.

    I do try for a balancing act now. I don't hide all of myself in, but I don't let it all out either. I will sometimes reveal small eccentric bits and if people don't react negatively, I might reveal more of myself.

    On why some introverts lable extroverts as fake:

    I used to think like that. I will give two examples. For these to work you have to change the definition of extrovert to someone who has good social skill or someone who is popular.

    Having good people skills often involves a fair amount of white lies and emotional pretending. Things like pretending you love the birthday present you just got, even when you didn't, acting friendly to people you don't really like, complementing people when you are not sincere. I have found that many introverts - including myself - resent being pressured to engage in this "fake" behavior. Actually this is probably more of a T v. F issue than introverts v. extroverts.

    Another issue is social conformity that seems to be more common in extroverts than introverts. I noticed this more in high school than my adult years. Their was a clique of popular girls who were so alike - same clothing style, same hair style, same make up style, like the same movies, liked the same music, had crushes on the same actors and singers - that there seemed to be a general fakeness about them. The overall impression was that you had to give up your own preferences to be one of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    That's interesting, because so much of the criticism that introverts level at extraverts is based on a perception that extraverts are 'fake' somehow...

    I didn't mean anyway, getting over on other people (if I've got the phrase right, never heard it before so just guessing what it means from context). I just meant that if you're lonely because you've no intimacy or friendship with other people, then a way to solve that is to get OVER that fear that leads to the feeling that you NEED to self-preserve, and learn to actually SHARE yourself with another person. It doesn't help a person who feels lonely to tell them to go out and wear a mask cos then at least they can be with people, IMO that will just make them feel even worse when they find that doing that, they still feel lonely because they're not giving anyone anything to gel with.

    I don't quite get what it is the dude, or you, or other introverts in your interpretation, actually want from 'people'. It's like you reserve the right to hold yourself back and not really give any more than you feel like giving, whilst also wanting other people to give of themselves to you whatever it is you want them to give, so you don't feel lonely, at your personal convenience...

    I'm not judging, I'm just trying to understand... cos the way you put it and the way the OP puts it makes introverts look rather fake and selfish in their approach to other people (to me at least), and yet I know so many introverts and they're not like that, meaning I must've got my wires crossed somewhere

  4. #34
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I just meant that if you're lonely because you've no intimacy or friendship with other people, then a way to solve that is to get OVER that fear that leads to the feeling that you NEED to self-preserve, and learn to actually SHARE yourself with another person. It doesn't help a person who feels lonely to tell them to go out and wear a mask cos then at least they can be with people, IMO that will just make them feel even worse when they find that doing that, they still feel lonely because they're not giving anyone anything to gel with.
    I wouldn't advocate always wearing a mask because, like you said, that can make a person even more lonely and depressed. However, I think the idea of wearing the mask and then taking it off when you think you have found someone that you connect with is a good option (or when you feel comfortable).

    I hope that I'm not blowing this mask bit out of proportion. My mask doesn't totally change who I am. It just makes me more apt to smile and carry on conversations and do activities that I wouldn't normally enjoy. This is what I do what social interaction is sort of forced upon me or when I'm meeting new people and trying to evaluate them (their intentions, motivations, etc.).

    I don't quite get what it is the dude, or you, or other introverts in your interpretation, actually want from 'people'. It's like you reserve the right to hold yourself back and not really give any more than you feel like giving, whilst also wanting other people to give of themselves to you whatever it is you want them to give, so you don't feel lonely, at your personal convenience...
    Well, I don't really relate to the dude in the OP, and I agree with several things that you said in your next post. However, I reserve the right to hold myself back, and to be honest, I don't want people to give of themselves to me. Most of the time, I wish they would leave me alone. I would suspect that a lot of introverts feel the same way. Mostly, we just want to be understood.

  5. #35
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    Okay that explains it a bit more clearly I guess, but surely you must see there's a dichotomy between wanting to be left alone and wanting to be understood... and how are the people you relate to going to know they relate to you and approach you if you're holding yourself back until you feel you relate to them? Surely as a method, it's a bit um, well, flawed?

    I just can't help thinking these statements don't really gel with each other: you don't want people to give of themselves, yet you want them to give you their time and understanding; yet you want them to leave you alone; yet you want them to understand you... it's all a bit contradictory. It's a bit like saying you want people for your own purposes, and once they're not fulfilling those any more, you want them to go away. Can you see why that can come across as rather selfish?
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  6. #36
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Okay that explains it a bit more clearly I guess, but surely you must see there's a dichotomy between wanting to be left alone and wanting to be understood...
    Right. I guess all it takes to make us not feel lonely is to be understood by one or two people. The rest can just leave us alone.

    But then, of course, the trouble is in finding those people when we're so guarded in the first place.

    . . . and how are the people you relate to going to know they relate to you and approach you if you're holding yourself back until you feel you relate to them? Surely as a method, it's a bit um, well, flawed?
    Yeah. I thought you were going to ask this question. I started addressing it in my previous post, but I had trouble expressing it. It's definitely a flawed method, and it probably results in a lot of missed opportunities. However, for me, it seems better than the alternative of always being myself.

    Also, for introverts that have good people reading skills, they may be able to almost instantaneously identify those that they can relate to and cautiously reveal a bit more of themselves to those people. I can spend 5 minutes listening to a group a people and determine who I would like to get to know better.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    I can spend 5 minutes listening to a group a people and determine who I would like to get to know better.
    Naturally. Does it really take five minutes? A good hard look usually gets the job done. But I don't get to know anyone unless it's accidental.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    ... However, I think the idea of wearing the mask and then taking it off when you think you have found someone that you connect with is a good option (or when you feel comfortable).

    I hope that I'm not blowing this mask bit out of proportion. My mask doesn't totally change who I am. It just makes me more apt to smile and carry on conversations and do activities that I wouldn't normally enjoy. This is what I do what social interaction is sort of forced upon me or when I'm meeting new people and trying to evaluate them (their intentions, motivations, etc.).
    I agree with the concept of a mask. I don't think it's always a bad thing. It serves to enable social interaction and also protect ourselves from those who might abuse our openness. Mask is not necessarily equivalent to duplicity.

    And honestly, very few people are "raw" anyway... and usually when they are, there's a tendency to violate others if they're just motivated by basic instincts. We all tailor our behavior a bit when we're in a group setting, if we care about others.

    I only see masks as a problem when they're held onto out of fear when the opportunity exists (and it would be beneficial) to safely go deeper... or of course if they're completely fake and used just to lure in the unsuspecting for the benefit of the masked.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  9. #39
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Naturally. Does it really take five minutes?
    No. I just didn't want to seem too overconfident. I was wearing my modesty mask.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Fuent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    No. I just didn't want to seem too overconfident. I was wearing my modesty mask.
    Lol.

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