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[MBTI General] What's wrong with being an xNTJ, anyway?

Enyo

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Aug 9, 2008
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xNTJ
At every job that I've ever had (which has always been or lead to managerial/supervisory positions), my staff complains that I'm cold. I've actually been told that I'm efficient and goal-oriented to a fault.

If anything, more like Tuvok's precision and indifference to feelings with Seven of Nine's drive for perfection.

How on earth can anyone consider it difficult to report to someone who is blunt and clear in expectations? I mean, it's not like you ever wonder where you stand with this person.

I'm even willing to help you learn to meet my expectations if you don't meet them now. You can't possibly meet them if you don't have the tools to do it.

So, can someone explain to me where the complication is? Because I really don't get it.
 

murkrow

Branded with Satan
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Jul 19, 2008
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1,635
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INTJ
They want their mommy.

Most people have been so pampered by the succession of F authority figures they've encountered on their way through parenting and schooling that they've no clue how to value themselves according to the attainment of a decided goal and instead value themselves based on the perceived love of their masters.

The pain in the ass about this is that it might actually make it more efficient for you to rub their little noses whenever possible.

Hopefully you will soon find yourself in a position where you have an easily replaceable or self aware work force.
 

runvardh

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You sound like someone I'd prefer to work for as long as I still was given time to eat and my time off doesn't get infringed on with out proper reason.
 

Enyo

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xNTJ
You sound like someone I'd prefer to work for as long as I still was given time to eat and my time off doesn't get infringed on with out proper reason.

Heh. Breaks are yours. I try to give everyone the time off that they ask for.

The long and short of it is, I don't care *how* you do your job, as long as the results are what I'm looking for. (And not illegal, immoral, etc.)

And I can take "no" for an answer. (As in, if I ask you to do something, and you don't have the time to do it, then tell me.) But my staff is afraid to tell me no for some reason. I don't understand why when I ask a question, they don't want to give me an honest response.

Instead, they cry to *my* boss, who just undermined my authority by taking that department's side.
 

substitute

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From my point of view? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Well, if I wanted to really nitpick, I could probably come up with a few minor irritations and bugbears, but I wouldn't so much say they were indicative of a fault in the xNTJ per se as much as just a clash with certain aspects of me that could just as easily have been the actual fault in question.

In general though, if it were the other way round and bosses had to audition and be interviewed before employees decided to work for them, I'd be giving my prospective bosses MBTI tests and favouritising the xNTJ's.
 

MacGuffin

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The long and short of it is, I don't care *how* you do your job, as long as the results are what I'm looking for. (And not illegal, immoral, etc.)
You can be my boss.

Now fuck off, I'm on the internet doing "research"!
 

reason

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So, can someone explain to me where the complication is? Because I really don't get it.
If a member of staff is asked 'what do you not like about your manager?' then they will feel obligated to respond in some manner, even if their complaint is only minor. In other words, even the best manager has some attribute that is weakest, and his/her staff will likely focus on that attribute when talking about their manager. I would not take it too seriously, unless such complaints were putting my job in danger.
 

Enyo

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xNTJ
If a member of staff is asked 'what do you not like about your manager?' then they will feel obligated to respond in some manner, even if their complaint is only minor. In other words, even the best manager has some attribute that is weakest, and his/her staff will likely focus on that attribute when talking about their manager. I would not take it too seriously, unless such complaints were putting my job in danger.

Enough danger that I had that department pulled from my direction and given to another sales manager. I had 5 departments that I managed (I'm a sales manager), and now I only have 4.

Granted, they are giving that department to a manager with only 1 department, and that manager was the one who had to audit the department that I lost. My boss said that it should have never been in my department in the first place, especially since I don't even have the authorization to enter part of it.

And he's right. It never should have been my department. But it pisses me off that he removed it from me because of whining, rather than because it was a logical decision.

To me, he has just sent a message to the staff, and that message is "If you think Enyo is mean, cry to me, and I'll fix it so you don't have to listen to her anymore."

My job is a one year contract. I'm covering for someone who is on maternity leave. She is soft and gentle and cares about feelings more than productivity. I'm an NT, so I obviously do not. Once she comes back from mat leave, I'm done and hopefully going on a mat leave of my own.

I don't want to spend the next 11 months with people who need to whine behind my back because they don't have the balls to say it to my face and maybe bring about the changes that they'd like to see.
 

reason

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I don't want to spend the next 11 months with people who need to whine behind my back because they don't have the balls to say it to my face and maybe bring about the changes that they'd like to see.
Have you considered that another manager might try a different approach, maybe one that works? You might not like the tools that you have to work with, but since they are the tools which you have been given, try to use them for what they are and not how you wish they were. If that is too much for you then I suggest that you either suck it up and stay the course, or look for alternative employment.

The decision to pull the department from you does not strike me as illogical, it makes a good deal of sense. The employees are not slaves and need to be kept happy, or else valuable skills will bleed from the company and perhaps land in the seats of competitors. The company has no special obligation to you, especially when you upset other employees, whether by intent or not.

The irony, of course, is that you are now here to whine to us about those who whine about you: they're too soft and sensitive, whereas you're too hard and cold. I would guess that according to each other's expectations, both are true. An unfortunate situation, though not beyond repair by those big enough to step outside of their comfort zone, and by the sound of things that will have to be you or nobody.

However, given my vastly limited knowledge of your life and specific circumstances, I may be safely ignored. Good luck with whatever course of action your choose.
 

runvardh

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LOL, I guess this is atypical of my type, but I always tell my boss what's wrong with what and why it should be done whatever way I figured out. I've had bosses who loved it, bosses who hated it, and bosses who were indifferent. Thankfully I only had one boss who hated it, but he was a lazy ass whom I learned to manipulate to maintain the hours I needed while still having some time to myself.

Actually, that department sounds like the day shift people whos work I used to deal with when I came in for night audit. After knowing what every shift was supposed to do and getting my ass kicked for not getting everything done I started making lists of things that were not done before I got there that should have been. It was a no no to insist that the teeny girls who did the 3 - 11 shift actually do their job instead of chatting all night, but I did it and nearly got fired for it. The manager tried talking the owners into letting him do it, but got reamed out for wanting to fire the best auditor on staff (gotta love retired accountants).
 

Jeffster

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Well, it's just, why is it so important to you for me to say that you're right before you release me from your Vulcan death grip?
 

cascadeco

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At every job that I've ever had (which has always been or lead to managerial/supervisory positions), my staff complains that I'm cold. I've actually been told that I'm efficient and goal-oriented to a fault.

If anything, more like Tuvok's precision and indifference to feelings with Seven of Nine's drive for perfection.

How on earth can anyone consider it difficult to report to someone who is blunt and clear in expectations? I mean, it's not like you ever wonder where you stand with this person.

I'm even willing to help you learn to meet my expectations if you don't meet them now. You can't possibly meet them if you don't have the tools to do it.

So, can someone explain to me where the complication is? Because I really don't get it.

I don't think I have many problems with 'coldness' in the workplace - assuming it's not deliberate and coming from a mean-spirited place. Actually I have an INTJ coworker whose coldness and lack of any tactfulness simply amuses me - because I know people shouldn't really take it personally, she just has different goals/priorities than most. She and I actually get along pretty well. :)

But my ISFJ coworker has the hardest time with her. [and to be honest most people at one time or another has bristled at the INTJ's communication style, and she can rub people the wrong way] The ISFJ takes her comments and approach to work pretty personally, and feels rather belittled by the INTJ.

But this situation proved to be one of the only practical applications of mbti I've found!!! I printed out an INTJ profile (my coworker, for better or worse, fits the stereotype to a T), gave it to my ISFJ coworker, and sat her down and explained to her that the INTJ simply operates in a different mode than she does. That the INTJ doesn't particularly care about the relationship/team dynamics as such, that she's all about efficiency, results, and the work/subject matter itself - and seeing that it is done well - rather than focusing on the teamwork/relationships to get it done. It seemed to help my ISFJ coworker when I told her all of this. (now I don't know if I was completely right in everything I said, but after I told her all of this -- just the two of them having totally different focuses/priorities in the workplace -- she thanked me and said "Now I have something I can work with, and can start trying to look at all of it differently."
 

Enyo

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The irony, of course, is that you are now here to whine to us about those who whine about you: they're too soft and sensitive, whereas you're too hard and cold. I would guess that according to each other's expectations, both are true. An unfortunate situation, though not beyond repair by those big enough to step outside of their comfort zone, and by the sound of things that will have to be you or nobody.

Hmm. I had thought that it was an attempt to understand where my approach was flawed, rather than whining.

How to repair it is where I'm at a loss. I can't just have a personality transplant and suddenly become cuddly. I didn't call *them* too soft and sensitive, btw. I was referring to my predecessor.

Fortunately, I don't *have* to find alternate employment. I don't have to have employment, period. I went back to work because I was bored at home. But knowing me, I'll end up sucking it up because I have difficulty with quitting or giving up.

Well, it's just, why is it so important to you for me to say that you're right before you release me from your Vulcan death grip?


Because I'm right, damn it. I'm always right, I've always been right, and I always *will* be right. (And I'm kidding, btw.)

I don't think I have many problems with 'coldness' in the workplace - assuming it's not deliberate and coming from a mean-spirited place. Actually I have an INTJ coworker whose coldness and lack of any tactfulness simply amuses me - because I know people shouldn't really take it personally, she just has different goals/priorities than most. She and I actually get along pretty well. :)

And there's the rub. Even when they were complaining (in tears, no less) about me, even then they didn't tell my boss that I'm "teh big meanie" or whatever.

It's not that I'm mean, it's just that I don't get it. I suck at feelings. I'm great at measurable action.
 
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reason

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Hmm. I had thought that it was an attempt to understand where my approach was flawed, rather than whining.
When I read your posts I felt as though someone was in the room whining, not just whining, but whining nonetheless. In any case, there is nothing wrong with whining so long as the complaints are well placed and the intention benign, the added emotion just means that you care about the situation and are motivated to do something about it. How motivated is another matter, especially when you can afford not to work.

How to repair it is where I'm at a loss. I can't just have a personality transplant and suddenly become cuddly. I didn't call *them* too soft and sensitive, btw. I was referring to my predecessor.
You can't have a personality transplant, and neither can those who you are complaining about, but fortunately nothing so drastic as a transplant is necessary. There are many things which come more "naturally" to us than others, but that does not mean we are incapable of learning them, doing them, or even excelling in them. The alcoholic may struggle against their personality to control an addiction, a philosopher may fight against his inclination to be dogmatic, and a nurse may strive to overcome a harsh bedside manner. There is often virtue and knowledge to be had in resisting our instincts or habits, and indeed civilisation would be far less civil if there were not, so perhaps the dispositions of your personality should not be so important.

Fortunately, I don't *have* to find alternate employment. I don't have to have employment, period. I went back to work because I was bored at home. But knowing me, I'll end up sucking it up because I have difficulty with quitting or giving up.
That is a very enviable position to be in. Again, I wish you luck in whatever you eventually decide to do.
 

cascadeco

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It's not that I'm mean, it's just that I don't get it. I suck at feelings. I'm great at measurable action.

I believe you, and there's nothing 'wrong' with being great at measurable action, and nothing 'wrong' with being xNTJ.

However, if you find the current state at work undesirable, you could try to work on the delivery a bit and cushion how you say things to others - be a bit more diplomatic in how you outline things/direct others, vs. just being blunt. I think anyone can learn to do this, while still maintaining integrity and staying true to yourself, so it doesn't have to be 'fake'.

Of course you don't have to do that either. But I will say that when my INTJ coworker does go the more diplomatic/'mellow' route in delivery (I think my INFP boss has 'trained' her in how to do this :smile:), you can feel the tension dissipating in the room, and people are more apt to respond or go with her plan. So the delivery itself can lead to more efficiency, or less.
 

Sunshine

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There's nothing at all wrong with being an xNTJ.

I believe you, and there's nothing 'wrong' with being great at measurable action, and nothing 'wrong' with being xNTJ.

However, if you find the current state at work undesirable, you could try to work on the delivery a bit and cushion how you say things to others - be a bit more diplomatic in how you outline things/direct others, vs. just being blunt. I think anyone can learn to do this, while still maintaining integrity and staying true to yourself, so it doesn't have to be 'fake'.

Of course you don't have to do that either. But I will say that when my INTJ coworker does go the more diplomatic/'mellow' route in delivery (I think my INFP boss has 'trained' her in how to do this :smile:), you can feel the tension dissipating in the room, and people are more apt to respond or go with her plan. So the delivery itself can lead to more efficiency, or less.

That was a good post, Cascademn.
 

Kasper

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Being the boss is about people management, if your staff see you as cold and unapproachable and you recognise this is a problem than you need to fix it. Dealing with another NT this way usually fine and appreciated but you should invest in learning the best ways of getting the results you desire out of other types, let’s face it the results are what you care about right.

How on earth can anyone consider it difficult to report to someone who is blunt and clear in expectations? I mean, it's not like you ever wonder where you stand with this person.
Being blunt and clear is fine, being un-personable causes problems. You cannot treat everyone the same, I wish you could but your staff are individuals, some need more finesse when talking to, being a blunt NT can be intimidating.

And I can take "no" for an answer. (As in, if I ask you to do something, and you don't have the time to do it, then tell me.) But my staff is afraid to tell me no for some reason. I don't understand why when I ask a question, they don't want to give me an honest response.

Instead, they cry to *my* boss, who just undermined my authority by taking that department's side.
You have a real problem there, I'm sure the situation would frustrate you no end, it would me, that should be motivation enough to change, you cannot expect others to.

But it pisses me off that he removed it from me because of whining, rather than because it was a logical decision.
Sounds like you as an NT have expectations that your staff and boss will think and act the same way. Some people make decisions based on feeling, some based on logic, you should learn the skills to appeal to both.

How to repair it is where I'm at a loss. I can't just have a personality transplant and suddenly become cuddly.
Please don’t hug them, that will only scare them more! You need to work on developing trust as that appears to be one of the problems, they need to learn that coming to you with a problem will result in understanding and a solution. Little things can count and increase moral, just try turning your NT down for a bit and seeing things from your staffs perspective.
 

Algora J

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At every job that I've ever had (which has always been or lead to managerial/supervisory positions), my staff complains that I'm cold. I've actually been told that I'm efficient and goal-oriented to a fault.

If anything, more like Tuvok's precision and indifference to feelings with Seven of Nine's drive for perfection.

How on earth can anyone consider it difficult to report to someone who is blunt and clear in expectations? I mean, it's not like you ever wonder where you stand with this person.

I'm even willing to help you learn to meet my expectations if you don't meet them now. You can't possibly meet them if you don't have the tools to do it.

So, can someone explain to me where the complication is? Because I really don't get it.

Usually when people say "cold" they mean rude or lacking in social graces.

When I first started projects, people found me too "matter-of-fact" getting straight to business. Usually people appreciate it a lot more if you're interested in them as a person and an individual making a contribution instead of one of the many minions who work there.

I always make an effort to get to know everyone on staff and to remember personal details about them so that when I see them again, I have something to chitchat with them about, even for a few seconds. A little conversation goes a long way, I've found.

Perhaps you should make an effort to get to know your staff and to treat them like people, not lego pieces.

Just a thought :)
 

Thursday

Earth Exalted
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At every job that I've ever had (which has always been or lead to managerial/supervisory positions), my staff complains that I'm cold. I've actually been told that I'm efficient and goal-oriented to a fault.

If anything, more like Tuvok's precision and indifference to feelings with Seven of Nine's drive for perfection.

How on earth can anyone consider it difficult to report to someone who is blunt and clear in expectations? I mean, it's not like you ever wonder where you stand with this person.

I'm even willing to help you learn to meet my expectations if you don't meet them now. You can't possibly meet them if you don't have the tools to do it.

So, can someone explain to me where the complication is? Because I really don't get it.

they are inefficient and insecure
nevermind such idiots
 
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