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[MBTI General] INTJ: How do others see you? (ISFJ mom's opinion of me)

Usehername

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I've read all the "right" responses to this question... but I'm asking more of a one-on-one, "this is how someone said they see me" question.

My mom thinks I need too much privacy; that I can't let anyone see me fail and I like to be seen as tough.

She thinks my soul is superficial. She actually said that. I'm not offended but I do wonder how much of this is her ISFJ not-able-to-seeness.

(She said my INFP brother (and btw she hates myers-briggs so this was not related in that way, we just used words) has the deepest soul. I told her he is more feeling-ly; she said that my "conceptual and theoretical" soul is not deep b/c I don't share myself.)

I am so baffled. Different does not mean "less than" or "greater than" it simply means different.

But it made me think: how do you see INTJs? What do you think of their abstract ideas and depth of soul? What do you think about INTJs and feeling?
 

cafe

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My INTJ daughter doesn't show much emotion and she isn't very open about what she thinks of feels. I just figure still waters run deep and she'll share when and if she feels like it. I don't think my INFP daughter is any deeper because, to me, her feelings seem more fleeting. Feelings that are not sustained seem shallow to me. So for whatever that's worth.

Edit: Oh. Sorry. I'm not an INTJ. :blush:
 

Totenkindly

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My mom thinks I need too much privacy; that I can't let anyone see me fail and I like to be seen as tough... She thinks my soul is superficial...(She said my INFP brother (and btw she hates myers-briggs so this was not related in that way, we just used words) has the deepest soul. I told her he is more feeling-ly; she said that my "conceptual and theoretical" soul is not deep b/c I don't share myself.)

Well, I do think some of it is because you are not "like your mom" and so she reads that as superficiality. Anything that encourages a palpable bond between people and feelings of caring is seen as good, so what you do is "not as good."

Your brother, the INFP, naturally reaches out to others and affirms them on a personal and often emotional level, affirming the relationship and talking in TERMS of the relationship... so your ISFJ mom sees that easily and feels what he does for her. He has an easy pass -- who he is meshes very easily with her, compared with who you are.

It's harder because you are female, so you not only have the INTJ thing going but your mom probably feels like you are not "female enough" like she is, in terms of speaking in terms of relational values and people's feelings. You probably do come across as cold to her.

ISFJs, unless broadened immensely by experience, have a very very hard time seeing UNDER the surface; they see all the surface stuff first, the similarities and the differences, and those hold the most power over her opinions.

To be honest, she probably just wants to "FEEL" close to you. That means being involved in your life, being able to help you when you've got needs, being able to give things to you, being able to chat about personal details of your day and how they left you feeling, and all of those fun things. She needs a very tangible relationship with you to feel close to you. Since she is not getting those cues from you, she feels distant and so she is criticizing you. Is there anything you can do to involve her more, if you want to develop that relationship? ISFJs like to feel needed and included; they like to support others in tangible and often practical ways.

What do I think of INTJs personally? They can sometimes feel "colder" than me, and more demanding, and more distant/impersonal in some ways. They seem focused on closure and getting things done, rather than playing around and exploring, and sometimes this is stifling. Sometimes they seem very driven. They are also very autonomous and seem self-reliant and not open to help, unless they are in charge of asking for things.

But all of that is from the perspective of an INTP, and INTJs are not me... so I can't say they are "bad" because they are not like me. Just different.

Really, as far as your mother goes, I would just think to yourself about what allowances you could make to connect with her in small ways she'd "get." Your strengths probably feel too impersonal or abstract for her to discuss easily, she just doesn't have the interest or capability for prolonged periods of time, if at all. If you can do small tangible things to affirm the relationship (ask your brother to advise you?), maybe that will help her relax and start to accept that you are who you are, and see value in it.

It's not easy, so don't feel bad you're having trouble.
 

htb

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Oh. Sorry. I'm not an INTJ.
Her question was "how do you see INTJs" -- no apologies necessary.

By the by, you've a steely daughter.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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(She said my INFP brother (and btw she hates myers-briggs so this was not related in that way, we just used words) has the deepest soul. I told her he is more feeling-ly; she said that my "conceptual and theoretical" soul is not deep b/c I don't share myself.)
It's only not as deep to her because she cannot see it. They may have less soul on average in that by nature they may not be as natural at singing the blues. :) I like the way INTJ minds work. I tend to respect INTJs. They tend to seem curious about me rather than making assumptions.
 

The Ü™

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Well, I can actually seem more extraverted when I'm talking with people -- particularly if I know them reasonably well. Still, some people don't take kindly to my "off-the-wall" behavior and comments and people think I'm arrogant.

When I observe other people, they seem to be amused by things that I just don't understand, but everyone seems disgusted when I'm amused by the things they don't understand -- such as my perspective on the world.

You won't believe how many people I pissed off when I said that Valentine's Day was really about death -- I mean, why else would a heart be pierced by an arrow?

I just honestly don't see the point in things other people do -- such as parties, sports, clothes, etc.

Hell, I am actually quite baffled when these kids shows talk about how important friendships are. People ask me what I do with other friends and when I reply that I don't really have friends -- it pisses me off when other people respond: "That's sad."

The truth is, though, I don't really see the point of developing friendships unless the other person is useful in some way.

Does that sound INTJ enough for you?
 

Langrenus

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You won't believe how many people I pissed off when I said that Valentine's Day was really about death -- I mean, why else would a heart be pierced by an arrow?

For the life of me I can't see why anyone would be pissed off by that - 1) what's there to be pissed off about? and 2) why does it matter? It's a day in the year. And that isn't me empathizing with an INTJ. It's just quite plainly a stupid response.

Uberfuhrer said:
it pisses me off when other people respond: "That's sad."

Ah yes, ah yes...this morning, in the shower, I recomposed one of Browning's sonnets in my head...ESFP's, how do you annoy me? Let me count the ways...this little gem was high on the list.

Anyway, that hasn't added much to the conversation. So a question: do people find you arrogant because you are?
 
Last edited:

cafe

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You won't believe how many people I pissed off when I said that Valentine's Day was really about death -- I mean, why else would a heart be pierced by an arrow?
That sounds like something my kid would go around saying. :yim_rolling_on_the_ I think it's funny, but I would argue the point. I'd have to have evidence that the original Saint's Day had something to do with death or the symbol of the heart with an arrow through it was a symbol of death. My kid would stick to her guns and I would stick to mine and eventually, she would roll her eyes, say "whatever . . . " and go back to her computer, and I would laugh. She is a delightful child. :wubbie:
 

faith

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I like INTJs. My brother is INTJ and I adore him. I enjoy the INTJs here and on INTPC.

My mom is ISFJ, and she thinks my brother is amazing, brilliant, insightful, witty, adorable, etc. (Yeah, sometimes I'm a bit envious because he's her baby...)

That's funny about "Valentine's day is really about death." I can see my brother saying that. It wouldn't piss me off; it'd make me laugh because it's cute in a sort of nerdishly defiant way.

I do think that some of the things he's said in the past were very sad--things like you describe about not having friends and not wanting them. (He's not like that now.) It's sad because he obviously did need friends. He needed approval of people he cares about and admires; he needed their intelligent discussion; he needed to learn how to act appropriately in social situations so he could use those situations to his advantage; he needed to become a whole person and develop all sides of himself--not just the ones that come easily.

Of course, it's not very nice to tell someone else that their thoughts and views are "sad". Rather patronizing and unkind.
 

rivercrow

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I have a number of INTJ friends IRL and dated one.

There's feeling there, but it's under layers, tho thankfully not as many layers as for INTPs (we just come across as emotional b/c of the Ne, I think). My observation is that INTJs "warm up" over time and with people they're close to and trust. The display of affection might be non-traditional and unexpected, too, given the dominant Ni.

Te always seems to make Te-preferring folks hard-edged (and I do mean all of them: ISTJ, INTJ, ESTJ, ENTJ).

Mom will just have to patient. :D

Man, what a raw deal being compared to an INFP for apparent depth of feeling! You need wubbies! :hug:
 

The Ü™

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I've come to the notion that it's not necessarily the Introverts that have trouble functioning socially, but the iNtuitives, and especially iNtuitive Thinkers, since they tend not to care what other people think.

I've met Sensors that were also Introverted, but they didn't seem very unusual, but iNtuitives, regardless of whether or not they're Extraverted, always seemed to be outcasts, or at least had a unique aura about them that stood out. Extraverted iNtuitives are gregarious like any other Extravert, but they're also perceived as weird, and thus, despite being Extraverts, are still not accepted as much as the Sensors due to their unconventional way of seeing things.
 

Usehername

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Well, I do think some of it is because you are not "like your mom" and so she reads that as superficiality. Anything that encourages a palpable bond between people and feelings of caring is seen as good, so what you do is "not as good."
...


Really, as far as your mother goes, I would just think to yourself about what allowances you could make to connect with her in small ways she'd "get." Your strengths probably feel too impersonal or abstract for her to discuss easily, she just doesn't have the interest or capability for prolonged periods of time, if at all. If you can do small tangible things to affirm the relationship (ask your brother to advise you?), maybe that will help her relax and start to accept that you are who you are, and see value in it.

It's not easy, so don't feel bad you're having trouble.

Yeah. I should invest time in thinking about this.


What mostly baffled me was that apparently I am "most similar to" my ESFJ sister. And her argument was backward. I swear it was. I tried to convince her but she smiled this "knowing smile" and I was stuttering at her incomprehensibility; she was saying that my ESFJ sister and I are very alike. I tried to talk to her about how it's only a superficial behavioral similarity (perfectionism)... then she talked about how "I never let friends get close"... ugh.

I just want to shake her. I tried arguing that my mother and I are different people and maybe I don't have the same needs as her (ummm.... SJ = need to belong!) and she totally thinks I'M LYING b/c I never had a best friend when I was younger or since. I HAVE CLOSE FRIENDS; she knows this. "The opportunity has been there time and time again, and you never take it!" Just because I don't need to call them up every 2 hours to talk about tomorrow's superifical plans to see them 24/7 doesn't mean I don't value them. UGH.

She's just really dumb about me sometimes. I know she loves me and tries.
 

htb

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we just come across as emotional b/c of the Ne, I think
Now, that I find very intriguing. At a recent get-together on the East Coast, about thirty-strong, my INTP friend was much more gregarious and lively than I. Like Paul James described, the comportment of a free spirit belied my friend's nature, I think; as when we took a walk and briefly spoke of serious, unfinished business my friend became painstaking and monosyllabic, as if every line of exchange required total concentration.
 

cafe

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In my experience, INTPs will deflect serious conversations with humor. It can be very hard to get anywhere with them because they will have you laughing so hard you forget what it was you wanted to talk to them about.
 

rivercrow

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Now, that I find very intriguing. At a recent get-together on the East Coast, about thirty-strong, my INTP friend was much more gregarious and lively than I. Like Paul James described, the comportment of a free spirit belied my friend's nature, I think; as when we took a walk and briefly spoke of serious, unfinished business my friend became painstaking and monosyllabic, as if every line of exchange required total concentration.

That was the renowned INTP chameleon circuit kicking in, I think. ;)
 

htb

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That was the renowned INTP chameleon circuit kicking in, I think.
You're right, you know! Later on, during lunch, I marveled at how an ENFP friend brought such life out of her. And here I was, sincere, clever enough and well-meaning, but so damned dour; and she reflected that. Better that, way back when, we kept it platonic.

Edit:
It can be very hard to get anywhere with them because they will have you laughing so hard you forget what it was you wanted to talk to them about.
I think I've seen that before. It's the guilelessness with which they do it, too, that so charms.
 

The Ü™

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When I was in middle and high school, I tried a few times to fit in so that people would seem more interested in me (i.e. wearing the overpriced clothes they wear). But the problem was that I wasn't interested in the things they did, so that experiment didn't last very long. So I just spent the rest of my high school years acting out and pressing other people's buttons.

By the way, does anyone know of other INTJs who have an unusually morbid sense of humor? I guess you can say other people perceived my sense of humor as really morbid (my mom says I'd make a good mortician). And I sometimes catch myself laughing and thinking of witty James Bond-like puns when I watch prime time television.
 

rivercrow

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What mostly baffled me was that apparently I am "most similar to" my ESFJ sister. And her argument was backward. I swear it was. I tried to convince her but she smiled this "knowing smile" and I was stuttering at her incomprehensibility; she was saying that my ESFJ sister and I are very alike. I tried to talk to her about how it's only a superficial behavioral similarity (perfectionism)... then she talked about how "I never let friends get close"... ugh.
I think the similarity is probably the Extraverted Judging. Both of you would apparently come to closure quickly--faster than someone with an Extraverted Sensing function.

All moms--and anyone over the age of 30--master the "knowing smile." The best counter to that is a return "knowing smile" with no counterargument. Trust me. :devil:

(Or, just admit that you need to pick your battles and this one could be a Pyrrhic victory.) :)
 

Totenkindly

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What mostly baffled me was that apparently I am "most similar to" my ESFJ sister. And her argument was backward. I swear it was. I tried to convince her but she smiled this "knowing smile" and I was stuttering at her incomprehensibility; she was saying that my ESFJ sister and I are very alike. I tried to talk to her about how it's only a superficial behavioral similarity (perfectionism)... then she talked about how "I never let friends get close"... ugh.

As far as superficials, I guess she was right; but as far as essentials, you were.

I think you are a little better off because you understand that people work differently; your mom still thinks that everyone works similarly and she's "wiser" than you are. But it also puts more burden on you, since you are actually wiser in terms of evaluating people for who they are.

I just want to shake her... Just because I don't need to call them up every 2 hours to talk about tomorrow's superifical plans to see them 24/7 doesn't mean I don't value them. UGH. She's just really dumb about me sometimes. I know she loves me and tries.

Yeah. :(

I know it doesn't make you feel any better or solve your problem, but my mom is an ISFJ as well and still doesn't understand me. She tries hard to accommodate me, but we have a lot of trouble having any sort of conversations that I would find meaningful; at best, I have to talk about the things she's interested in, on her level.

I do try sometimes to stretch her, but I can't do much of it, and that's disappointing to me. My heart sinks when she gets that "deer in the headlights" look and becomes totally baffled, and we have to change the topic.

So vent all you want. :)
 

Metamorphosis

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ISFJs like to feel needed and included; they like to support others in tangible and often practical ways.

QFE

I am also an INTJ with an ISFJ mom (who doesn't believe in MBTI, btw). On top of which, her boss is an INTJ. She respects him as a boss and knows him well enough to know that he is not the asshole that most people think he is. (Coworkers getting pissed because he walks right past without saying hi, and stupid stuff like that). I try to explain everything, but it is difficult to explain to someone who doesn't think MBTI has any bearing on real life (which all the ISFJs I know tend to believe).

However, just as I quoted, they definately feel like they have to be helping in some way. On one hand, this is helpful, as it tends to let me ignore tedious unnecessary tasks, but it also tends to be annoying when I am constantly pestered to do something before it actually needs to be done.

I think our roles, in relation to each other, are undergoing a change, though, as we both get older. She is becoming less of a caretaker and I am becoming more of a physical guardian. Loyalty from a relatively ruthless person is really useful (for all of you who have INTJ friends and family, keep that in mind). I am a very protective person, eventhough it probably isn't visible to most people.

As far as how she views me...I think her main problem is my "arrogance." Like I said, difficult to explain to someone who doesn't believe in MBTI. She also hates it when I say something to the extent of, "Don't worry about it, I'll do perfectly fine." (normally in relation to driving dangerously, financial success, or whatever)
 
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