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  1. #61
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Man, what a raw deal being compared to an INFP for apparent depth of feeling! You need wubbies!
    I don't think "depth of soul" equates with "apparent depth of feeling".

    I think "depth of soul" is measured (wrongly) by something else. I think it still has to do with intense emotions, but it is commonly more a description of people whose (intense) emotions are ambiguous, ambivalent, complicated and not readily apparent. While I think an INTJ is as capable as an INFP of having intense emotions, I think they would probably have far less inner ambivalence, ambiguity and conflictedness than an INFP due to their dominant Te. So I don't think INTJs would have less of an emotional life, I think they would have a better-defined (and controlled?) emotional life.

    I dunno, how would you measure "depth of soul"?

    Personally, I consider the INTJs I know to oversimplify values issues in favour of pragmatism. When you really question one on why they do the things they do, and why they hold the values they hold, it's like hitting your head against a brick wall sometimes. I can never tell if their values exhibit the simplicity of enlightenment, the simplicity of naivety, or the simplicity of indifference/despair.

  2. #62
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Personally, I consider the INTJs I know to oversimplify values issues in favour of pragmatism. When you really question one on why they do the things they do, and why they hold the values they hold, it's like hitting your head against a brick wall sometimes. I can never tell if their values exhibit the simplicity of enlightenment, the simplicity of naivety, or the simplicity of indifference/despair.
    The simplicity of effectiveness. Practically by nature, the more complicated you make something the less likely it is to work (computers for example). Do I have strong values? Yes. Do I still think the end justifies the means? Yes. Just because we appear to lack empathy doesn't mean that we do. It means that we are willing to make sacrifices (or make others make sacrifices, as the case may be) for the greater good. ...and the greater good in this case isn't humanity, it's whatever we deem it to be...

    The appearance of oversimplifying values issues is probably not because we don't care about the values aspect. I don't believe that values must only be interpreted emotionally. Logical calculations still come into play.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  3. #63
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    The appearance of oversimplifying values issues is probably not because we don't care about the values aspect. I don't believe that values must only be interpreted emotionally. Logical calculations still come into play.
    I'm not suggesting they don't. I'm suggesting that, when you boil it down, they don't seem to be interested in where their values come from, and what end they serve.

    Me: Why do you do X?
    INTJ: To achieve Y.
    Me: Why do you want to achieve Y?
    INTJ: Because it is the best way to achieve Z.
    Me: Why do you want to achieve Z?
    INTJ: Why wouldn't I want to achieve Z?
    Me: But surely there's a reason you want to achieve Z?
    INTJ: *blank/suspicious look*

  4. #64
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I'm not suggesting they don't. I'm suggesting that, when you boil it down, they don't seem to be interested in where their values come from, and what end they serve.

    Me: Why do you do X?
    INTJ: To achieve Y.
    Me: Why do you want to achieve Y?
    INTJ: Because it is the best way to achieve Z.
    Me: Why do you want to achieve Z?
    INTJ: Why wouldn't I want to achieve Z?
    Me: But surely there's a reason you want to achieve Z?
    INTJ: *blank/suspicious look*
    hmm...That's one of those things that you don't really notice until someone points it out to you. Overall, though, I would say that that is correct in my case. I don't see how you could really understand what motivates all of your values though...do you? In the end, I could probably explain most of my goals, but not necessarily why I have the values that they are based on.

    My ancient western political theory class just recently started discussing a similar topic that really got me thinking. It was basically over Socrates asking people, "Why do you do what you do?," rather than, "How do you do what you do?" It seems like an easy question on the outside but it really isn't.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  5. #65
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I don't see how you could really understand what motivates all of your values though...do you? In the end, I could probably explain most of my goals, but not necessarily why I have the values that they are based on.
    I don't know if it's possible to really understand what motivates my values, but it's not for a lack of thinking about it. INFPs have trouble not thinking about it.

  6. #66
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I don't know if it's possible to really understand what motivates my values, but it's not for a lack of thinking about it. INFPs have trouble not thinking about it.
    I'm not sure what motivates values either. They just seem to exist.

    Everything seems so arbitrary sometimes, except for principles derived straight from the observable environment.

    And INTJs seem inclined to worry less about why something is the way is (or what it's "supposed" to be) and more inclined to worry about how to implement what they've decided exists or is worth doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    She thinks my soul is superficial. She actually said that. I'm not offended but I do wonder how much of this is her ISFJ not-able-to-seeness. (She said my INFP brother (and btw she hates myers-briggs so this was not related in that way, we just used words) has the deepest soul. I told her he is more feeling-ly; she said that my "conceptual and theoretical" soul is not deep b/c I don't share myself.)
    Yes, I can see an ISFJ saying that. Because everything is judged by observable feeling actions, and INTJs often hide theirs and develop the ability to expose it later in life, usually, if at all. The impersonal manipulation of the environment would seem very cold and lifeless to her. INFPs tend to exude personal connection, however -- palpable goodwill. She would sense this more. So she is really judging you by HER standard of what "deep/meaningful" is, and not seeing beyond the surface.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #67
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And INTJs seem inclined to worry less about why something is the way is (or what it's "supposed" to be) and more inclined to worry about how to implement what they've decided exists or is worth doing.
    I agree. It is strange that we are so caught up in how things work and then choose to ignore the all important why they work. It's both a strength and a weakness.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  8. #68
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    I'm new, so I hope no one minds my jumping in like this, but I'm a female INTJ and I'm given to understand that we are a very rare breed.
    There was another female INTJ who posted and like her, I'm told that I'm intimidating, tactless and too independent for my own good. I fail to see how that's possible
    I'm also told that I argue over things so much that it's obnoxious and often insulting. That I'm rude to people I find tiresome or stupid and become defensive when strangers ask me questions about myself.
    I have no idea why I might be intimidating because I'm actually kind of shy. And I don't mean to be insulting or obnoxious when I argue things. Mostly I do it to understand whatever the topic is better, or to learn about the ideas of the other side. People often confuse my critique of their argument as a critique of them personally.

    My friends are often amused at the small social details I don't understand... such as things one may not want to mention on a first date (my philosophy is that if the relationship has any future they'll find out eventually).

    After re-reading this post, I have realized that it probably makes me look like a really mean, arrogant person. I assure you that is not the case.

  9. #69
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I've read all the "right" responses to this question... but I'm asking more of a one-on-one, "this is how someone said they see me" question.

    My mom thinks I need too much privacy; that I can't let anyone see me fail and I like to be seen as tough.

    She thinks my soul is superficial. She actually said that. I'm not offended but I do wonder how much of this is her ISFJ not-able-to-seeness.

    (She said my INFP brother (and btw she hates myers-briggs so this was not related in that way, we just used words) has the deepest soul. I told her he is more feeling-ly; she said that my "conceptual and theoretical" soul is not deep b/c I don't share myself.)

    I am so baffled. Different does not mean "less than" or "greater than" it simply means different.

    But it made me think: how do you see INTJs? What do you think of their abstract ideas and depth of soul? What do you think about INTJs and feeling?
    I don't know if you're still looking for input but I had an close friendship with an ISFJ for 3 years.
    She ended up hating me because of my "conservative" stance on everything in life.

    I ended up hating the way she always had to have everything the same all the time.
    And she certainly had no intention of changing herself one iota.
    And I didn't like her stubbornness when she was wrong.

    What you said about your Mom appreciating your brother,
    certainly it must be his "F" that makes her feel like she can relate to him better.
    Not only that, but I have a son, and I can tell you,
    sons have their moms wrapped around their little finger
    the way that daughters stereotypically do with dads.

    T and F is in the eye of the beholder.
    An ISFJ is EXTREMELY SENSITIVE to feelings.
    An INTJ is not that sensitive to feelings unless they have learned it.
    Therefore, there is a greater expanse between your T and her F.
    In other words, some other F types who are not as sensitive might not see you quite as extremely as your mom sees you.

    My ISFJ friend was ALL ABOUT FEELINGS.
    I learned how to be more careful about people's feelings,
    but it really was emotionally exhausting for me to have to care about her feelings 24/7.

    Frankly, if your mom is telling you she likes your brother better than you,
    her F must not be as strong as my friend's.
    The F tends to make people diplomatic in what they say to people.

    As far as her seeing your depth of soul, she is unable to see it.
    You have it, but she doesn't see it - in my opinion.

    Well, MBTI is all about improving human relationships, so keep up the good work.

  10. #70
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    I don't think that INTJs have exclusivity to being seen this way. My late mom always considered me hearless and uncaring, as does other females in my family. This is more of a T-thing and most likely is shared by those who have a "Chart the Course" interaction style. The directness and no non-sense means of communicating with others can be quite intimidating.

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