[NT] MBTI correlation with LGBTQA+ individuals and coming out

[HongDou]

Last semester two of my female roommates started dating each other. The INTJ had known she was bi since early high school and while she had never actually come out to us, we all knew. INFP roommate on the other hand was 21 years old and had no clue she had the potential to be attracted to women. In fact, she didn't even realize she had feelings for INTJ roommate until we all basically told her. Once they started dating she and I were talking and I asked her if she had even been attracted to women before to which she responded "No, but, I figured INTJ roommate and I where really good friends so why not? I've never really been attracted to guys either." I don't understand how that works, or how you can just not know you are attracted to someone. But, obviously I can only speak from my experience, which is quite limited.

Exactly. It's all about self-awareness.

lol @ us NFPs having to be told by EFJs how we're feeling. it's like we hear our emotions talking, and you guys do the translating.

 

[lunalum]

A to Q to B for me


I always thought the concept of coming out was so strange. Like if straight people don't have to come out then why do I? Why can't people just see by seeing who I date? Unfortunately the whole simply presenting who I started dating thing ended up very, very badly. Coming out is a ridiculous thing to appease an even more ridiculous society, it seems. The sooner we can rid the need of this appeasement the better.

 

[á´…eparted]

Coming out is a ridiculous thing to appease an even more ridiculous society, it seems. The sooner we can rid the need of this appeasement the better.

I could not disagree more.

Most in the world do not like operating under assumptions, and it more often than not it leads to unneeded confusion. People like labels, and they are useful. It makes communication more efficient and understandable. For better or worse that is how society works and I don't see it changing any time soon.

 

[lunalum]

I could not disagree more.

Most in the world do not like operating under assumptions, and it more often than not it leads to unneeded confusion. People like labels, and they are useful. It makes communication more efficient and understandable. For better or worse that is how society works and I don't see it changing any time soon.

Most in the world seem to like very much operating under the assumption that everyone is straight until they come out. This is the current machination of society and just because it's not changing anytime soon doesn't mean that I can't be part of the eventual change. A brave new world where I'm not socially obligated to make some grandiose speech on something as basic as having brown eyes.

 

[á´…eparted]

Most in the world seem to like very much operating under the assumption that everyone is straight until they come out. This is the current machination of society and just because it's not changing anytime soon doesn't mean that I can't be part of the eventual change. A brave new world where I'm not socially obligated to make some grandiose speech on something as basic as having brown eyes.

I don't think there's anything wrong with assuming individuals are straight until they say otherwise. It's the significant majority by a very large margin. For that reasons it's quite reasonable to assume so. I've had plenty of people in my life assume I am straight for a long while because I never made a point to tell them I'm gay. It doesn't bother me. At most, I am just surprised by it as I see myself as pretty obvious that I'm gay. You're more than welcome to go about it how you want, but I don't see the point when it isn't going to have any impact and it's just going to cause a headache for you as you've already stated.

I don't get why people get all bent out of shape out of benign false assumptions anyway. If they get it wrong, correct them. If that's not enough, correct yourself to cover the bases and then problem solved.

 

[lunalum]

I don't think there's anything wrong with assuming individuals are straight until they say otherwise. It's the significant majority by a very large margin. For that reasons it's quite reasonable to assume so. I've had plenty of people in my life assume I am straight for a long while because I never made a point to tell them I'm gay. It doesn't bother me. At most, I am just surprised by it as I see myself as pretty obvious that I'm gay. You're more than welcome to go about it how you want, but I don't see the point when it isn't going to have any impact and it's just going to cause a headache for you as you've already stated.

I don't get why people get all bent out of shape out of benign false assumptions anyway. If they get it wrong, correct them. If that's not enough, correct yourself to cover the bases and then problem solved.

I don't have a problem with straight=status quo. It's the societal obligation of having to formally come out if you're not straight I have a problem with. I have a problem with the fact that when I confided into a same-sex relationship, that it was assumed that I'm still straight and being seduced into wicked ways, all because I never explicitly said I wasn't straight.

 

[á´…eparted]

I don't have a problem with straight=status quo. It's the societal obligation of having to formally come out if you're not straight I have a problem with. I have a problem with the fact that when I confided into a same-sex relationship, that it was assumed that I'm still straight and being seduced into wicked ways, all because I never explicitly said I wasn't straight.

Ok. That seems a little over the top of them to see it that way, and I can see why that is bothersome. Nevertheless, not explicitly stating what you are will confuse people and lead to social confusion. This recently happened in my circle of friends. A friend of mine is polyamorus, and married. He recently started spending a lot of time with another woman and was very physically affectionate. He never said he was poly to anyone. I more or less guessed it but wasn't 100% certain. Many others assumed he might be cheating but it was in plane sight so everyone was just confused but didn't want to approach it. As a result we all got quiet. I got fed up with it and confronted him about it and he more or less went about it the way you did: didn't feel the need, and didn't like the idea that he had to "say" something. Once I explained how wildly confused and slightly rumorous our friends had gotten though he basically said (paraphrasing) "goddamnit, why doesn't this ever work?!" referring to letting people just guess. The answer is simple: people want clear communication.

 

[lunalum]

Ok. That seems a little over the top of them to see it that way, and I can see why that is bothersome. Nevertheless, not explicitly stating what you are will confuse people and lead to social confusion. This recently happened in my circle of friends. A friend of mine is polyamorus, and married. He recently started spending a lot of time with another woman and was very physically affectionate. He never said he was poly to anyone. I more or less guessed it but wasn't 100% certain. Many others assumed he might be cheating but it was in plane sight so everyone was just confused but didn't want to approach it. As a result we all got quiet. I got fed up with it and confronted him about it and he more or less went about it the way you did: didn't feel the need, and didn't like the idea that he had to "say" something. Once I explained how wildly confused and slightly rumorous our friends had gotten though he basically said (paraphrasing) "goddamnit, why doesn't this ever work?!" referring to letting people just guess. The answer is simple: people want clear communication.

I don't know that the parallel between this and the polyamorous situation holds up. Dating others in a closed marriage is a big no no. But where is the moral problem with same-sex dating while assumed to be straight? The whole poly thing gets easily confusing, I know. Where is the confusion in seeing two men kiss? Or two women? I think that speaks loudly and clearly for itself.

 

[á´…eparted]

I don't know that the parallel between this and the polyamorous situation holds up. Dating others in a closed marriage is a big no no. But where is the moral problem with same-sex dating while assumed to be straight? The whole poly thing gets easily confusing, I know. Where is the confusion in seeing two men kiss? Or two women? Doesn't the intertwine of same-sexed arms speak for itself?

I'm just going to stop here, we're not going to agree. My point is: having people implicitly assume backfires, and it shouldn't be a surprise.

 

[lunalum]

I'm just going to stop here, we're not going to agree. My point is: having people implicitly assume backfires, and it shouldn't be a surprise.

I'd like to at least know for sure what major point we're going to have the disagreement on, but I guess I'll have to be satisfied with my own guesses. Someday coming out will be as simple as "'This is my girlfriend -a girl," and some of my faith in humanity will be restored.

 

[HongDou]

My point is: having people implicitly assume backfires, and it shouldn't be a surprise.

But doesn't this go against everyone implicitly assuming everyone around them is straight? I'd agree with this if your point instead is for people to remain unassuming until they either ask someone or someone tells them. With your polyamorous (which I don't have a real stance on yet) friend your friends could have asked him sooner just as much as he could have told them sooner. I agree if he didn't want people worrying he should have told them, but also your friends could have asked him what was up if they were so worried rather than sitting in the background thinking of him as a cheater.

 

[á´…eparted]

But doesn't this go against everyone implicitly assuming everyone around them is straight? I'd agree with this if your point instead is for people to remain unassuming until they either ask someone or someone tells them. With your polyamorous (which I don't have a real stance on yet) friend your friends could have asked him sooner just as much as he could have told them sooner. I agree if he didn't want people worrying he should have told them, but also your friends could have asked him what was up if they were so worried rather than sitting in the background thinking of him as a cheater.

Lack of communication bothers the crap out of me, and I have low patience for people whom expect you to divine their intent or what they mean just because they don't want to self label, self disclose, or something related. I place the blame on him because he told me he knew it would likely confuse people, he just expected them to understand, and he was just too careless to say it. I do place some blame on my friends as well, it's part of the reason I just said "screw it I am just going to ask him". I was also hoping he'd introduce her or explain it, but he ended up never doing that. There's also the matter of some questions being inappropriate to ask. I'm of the opinion that it is the individual who is deviating from the norm's responsibility to clarify beforehand to defuse any potential social confusion, and allow the channels for questions to be asked opened, which would be inappropriate to ask without it.

The reason I don't think that goes against that is because straight is the norm. Assuming the norm is to be expected until their is new evidence.

 

[HongDou]

I'm of the opinion that it is the individual who is deviating from the norm's responsibility to clarify beforehand to defuse any potential social confusion, and allow the channels for questions to be asked opened, which would be inappropriate to ask without it.

We probably won't agree on this either, but this imo seems to reinforce the idea that people who aren't straight or deviate from any group majority have to jump through hoops to be properly understood by society. Although it didn't seem to affect you as much, it can make people from these groups feel ostracized and perceived strangely. And the way that all of our minds have already been conditioned to assume everyone is straight, this can place a huge wall between straight people and queer people. For me personally, this is a big factor as to why I identified as bi to psychologically get used to the idea of being gay - so that if people assumed I liked girls I would still meet the norm.

I agree open communication is important. I just think straight people, in the position of privilege who will never have to feel weird or ostracized because of their sexuality, could try reaching out and meeting in the middle rather than expecting everyone to state to them that they're different. I make sure everyone I meet knows I'm gay and I'm fine with that, but if people are so uncomfortable by not really "knowing" then the best thing they can do is just ask rather than assuming someone is straight.

 

[á´…eparted]

We probably won't agree on this either, but this imo seems to reinforce the idea that people who aren't straight or deviate from any group majority have to jump through hoops to be properly understood by society. Although it didn't seem to affect you as much, it can make people from these groups feel ostracized and perceived strangely. And the way that all of our minds have already been conditioned to assume everyone is straight, this can place a huge wall between straight people and queer people. For me personally, this is a big factor as to why I identified as bi to psychologically get used to the idea of being gay - so that if people assumed I liked girls I would still meet the norm.

I agree open communication is important. I just think straight people, in the position of privilege who will never have to feel weird or ostracized because of their sexuality, could try reaching out and meeting in the middle rather than expecting everyone to state to them that they're different. I make sure everyone I meet knows I'm gay and I'm fine with that, but if people are so uncomfortable by not really "knowing" then the best thing they can do is just ask rather than assuming someone is straight.

That doesn't imply that to me at all. Maybe I'm cold, but if people feel ostracized or perceived strangely then that is their problem (mostly). I have been seen as strange, odd, ALL my life, and when I was younger I was tormented for it to the point where I had to change school districts. I don't put the blame that much on them. It doesn't make their behavior right, but I was objectively strange, weird, and acting in ways that I failed to see would cause others to respond to poorly so it was a lot on me, not them. Again, it doesn't make them being mean right, and they should be reprimanded it for being vindictive, but outside of that nit much else. I don't take issue with being odd, and this goes with being gay. If people have a problem, so be it, but I will make a point and go out of my way to make it clear and lesson the impact of it since it minimizes everything on both ends. I have control of that and I should be expected to do so since I am in the minority.

It's reasonable to understand why someone wouldn't want to ask. If they're wrong, they're bound to upset the person or appear rude/inappropriate for doing so. Plus some people are rather sensitive to that. That is unless, there is some fairly clear evidence. I.E. cuddling with someone. Then contexts makes it reasonable to ask. If they don't then that would be their fault.

 

[HongDou]

That doesn't imply that to me at all. Maybe I'm cold, but if people feel ostracized or perceived strangely then that is their problem (mostly). I have been seen as strange, odd, ALL my life, and when I was younger I was tormented for it to the point where I had to change school districts. I don't put the blame that much on them. It doesn't make their behavior right, but I was objectively strange, weird, and acting in ways that I failed to see would cause others to respond to poorly so it was a lot on me, not them. Again, it doesn't make them being mean right, and they should be reprimanded it for being vindictive, but outside of that nit much else. I don't take issue with being odd, and this goes with being gay. If people have a problem, so be it, but I will make a point and go out of my way to make it clear and lesson the impact of it since it minimizes everything on both ends. I have control of that and I should be expected to do so since I am in the minority.

I disagree completely and put all the blame on your bullies. Unless you were antagonizing people or rude or impolite to them initially and that was part of your "weirdness" I think the kids should have either given you a chance and accepted you or moved on if they didn't like you. I'm not gonna reach too far but I can clearly see your E1 coming out and how it came to be in the first place lol. I don't think being weird or having quirks means that your tormenting was on your shoulders.

Feeling ostracized is something I blame society for rather than the person in said minority. What I do put on the individual is whether they have the willpower to overcome the feeling of being seen as an outsider. But the fact that people in minorities feel ostracized in the first place certainly isn't their fault imo. If we were more unassuming and accepting of others then this "othering" wouldn't be a problem, but the fact of the matter is that it is.

It's reasonable to understand why someone wouldn't want to ask. If they're wrong, they're bound to upset the person or appear rude/inappropriate for doing so. Plus some people are rather sensitive to that. That is unless, there is some fairly clear evidence. I.E. cuddling with someone. Then contexts makes it reasonable to ask. If they don't then that would be their fault.

Anyone upset over being questioned about their sexuality is just living proof of the fact that any sexuality that isn't straight is seen as a weird outliar tbh. Sexuality itself isn't something that we as a society like to discuss (on a personal level) and I'd like to see that changed.

 

[á´…eparted]

I disagree completely and put all the blame on your bullies. Unless you were antagonizing people or rude or impolite to them initially and that was part of your "weirdness" I think the kids should have either given you a chance and accepted you or moved on if they didn't like you. I'm not gonna reach too far but I can clearly see your E1 coming out and how it came to be in the first place lol. I don't think being weird or having quirks means that your tormenting was on your shoulders.

Feeling ostracized is something I blame society for rather than the person in said minority. What I do put on the individual is whether they have the willpower to overcome the feeling of being seen as an outsider. But the fact that people in minorities feel ostracized in the first place certainly isn't their fault imo. If we were more unassuming and accepting of others then this "othering" wouldn't be a problem, but the fact of the matter is that it is.

Anyone upset over being questioned about their sexuality is just living proof of the fact that any sexuality that isn't straight is seen as a weird outliar tbh. Sexuality itself isn't something that we as a society like to discuss (on a personal level) and I'd like to see that changed.

No worries you won't cross a line here. You wouldn't be the first to say that, but I don't agree. I don't intend this to come across as snooty/rude but you weren't there. You didn't get to observe what lead to my interactions. I was an odd kid with poor understanding of social graces and I constantly messed up. I did strange things, sometimes with full knowledge they were odd, I failed to learn from my mistakes despite being told by multiple including friends, friends parents, teachers, and my own parents. Even people who didn't like me would try to point things out. This went on for years. I went to a tiny elementary school. One class per grade first through sixth grade it was the same 25-30 people. We all knew each other well. I fed off attention of any kind and it was never enough and I lacked the self awareness to notice it. When told I was, I went arrogant and denyed it thinking only I could understand myself and that how I saw myself was accurate. Whether it was babbling to myself making strange noises when I had an emotional impulse, crying over something unworthy of such a response, trying to be friendly but going about it completely wrong, not doing my school work, having people tell me they didn't want me around and didn't care for me then me refusing to go away to try and prove my worth, the list goes on. It wasn't entirely unfair, people did try and inform me and I was too dumb, daft, stubborn, or simply unable to comprehend it. If people did it purely out of vindiction then it might be different, but it wasn't. Nearly everyone except for one or two people didn't bother me until getting to know me over periods of time and realizing what I was about. I snapped out of it when I changed school districts after 7th grade and hit puberty around the same time.

I don't see it as a bad reaction from being seen as weird. Some people get bent out of shape for being wrongly assumed. I have a hard time articulating it, but I can *completely* understand why a guy would feel really shitty for being constantly asked if he was gay, or a woman if she was a lesbian. I guess it's contextual but I can see it going either way whether or not someone feels ostracized. I've met people before who were *way* too sensitive and felt attacked by the slightest thing. I've also met people whom it was totally unfair for how they were treated. It really depends on what the minority is. If the minority is mere exsistence of some form, then absolutely it's not their fault. If it's a choice/behavioral and failure/refusal to adapt and find middle ground, then it depends on the situation.

 

[Totenkindly]

Most in the world seem to like very much operating under the assumption that everyone is straight until they come out. This is the current machination of society and just because it's not changing anytime soon doesn't mean that I can't be part of the eventual change. A brave new world where I'm not socially obligated to make some grandiose speech on something as basic as having brown eyes.

That's the way it should be. Why should the gender of the person you're in a relationship with matter one bit? It should just be a piece of data, not a life-defining label that people feel compelled to attach a morality to. No one should ever need to come out; it's unfortunate that at the moment the world is so rigidly anchored that it actually "means something" to come out.

I don't know that the parallel between this and the polyamorous situation holds up. Dating others in a closed marriage is a big no no. But where is the moral problem with same-sex dating while assumed to be straight? The whole poly thing gets easily confusing, I know. Where is the confusion in seeing two men kiss? Or two women? I think that speaks loudly and clearly for itself.

In the USA, we've barely had gay marriage anywhere until the last few years, it was 20 years ago that many states specifically prohibited gay marriage in order to publicly make a referendum on its immorality (according to the lawmakers), and before THAT, well, if you were in a same-sex relationship you were at best misled, confused, or screwed up by your parents and at worst were a communist, a pedophile, a lunatic, anti-Christian/God, and/or so forth. You couldn't be openly gay without losing your job and being driven out of town in some circumstances, if not beaten. Oscar Wilde died in prison a century ago (as an example) because he was gay; other famous people who happened to identify as gay or lesbian have died as well due to entrenched heterosexual norms.

Anyway, I guess my point is... give it some more time. We're barely past the boundary right now. The current generation doesn't seem to care much at all for the old rules, and once they begin to dominate the culture, well, that issue is settled.

.... to tie it to type, which was the topic... what would you expect an NTP to say? As far as morality goes, I don't care what gender another person mates with, I evaluate it by the bond/relationship if anything. That's actually how I always felt, even when raised within a stricter conservative Christian environment; I was told the Bible said one thing, but for me personally it didn't seem to make any sense.

 

[prplchknz]

I've been asked by a lesbian if I was gay.best.compliment.ever. mostly because if I was I'd consider dating her. I politely said I wasn't

 

[Istbkleta]

Pure "straight" people are not such a majority as you guys make them out to be.