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  1. #11
    Member Paris34's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Actually, there have been multiple studies showing that gay men's brains appear to be a bit more feminine (on average) than straight men's brains, and that lesbians' brains tend to be a bit more masculine (again, on average)... and by masculine and feminine I mean tending to show characteristics closer to what is typical for men or women, respectively, empirically. Given that and that Thinking and Feeling are associate with gender statistically, why would you expect gay men and women to show exactly the same break down as straight men and women? Certainly the OkCupid data (such as it is) seems to show real differences according to MBTI type.

    As far as gender differences: granted there's mostly overlap for most measures of men and women, with only a few areas showing significant gender difference (such as physical strength, for example). That means that gender differences are often not very predictive of a given person's strengths (even compared to someone of the opposite gender).
    I've seen those studies and I don't doubt that they hold merit and creditability, however I tend to hold a bias towards and veer away from things that reinforce the stereotypes of sexuality. It was those stereotypes that caused me so much confusion and one of the main reasons why it took me so long to realize my own sexuality. I thought that all lesbians had to be butch with short hair, play sports when they were younger, ect, and stereotypes are much deeper rooted in us than we care to admit and they take longer than a snap of the finger to move past. So, after years of dealing with internal struggles myself, I don't want to reinforce their validity as I understand the harm that they can do, and I don't want other people to have to struggle the same way I did.

    That being said, I'm sure there is correlation. And it is quite fascinating actually, as it might correspond to amounts of testosterone/estrogen that you are exposed to when in utero that can indicate sexuality. I know for males they have a higher chance of being gay if they have older brothers. This likely because the mother's testosterone levels drop with each son born, resulting in less testosterone available for the next child. (I could also just be speaking out my a** here so please, please correct me if i'm wrong -> I'm an art major, not biology.) I guess the question to ask here would be does MBTI correlate to the level's of testosterone or estrogen that a person is exposed to?

    It could be, but if we drop all of the stereotypes of the dichotomy and look at the functions as a combination of learned and innate behaviors that are ways of perceiving the world. F - is looking for meaning; T - looking for use. Fi - personal meaning;Fe - external meaning. Te - external use and order; Ti - internal use and order. They could correspond and relate to the stereotypes of gender. It would be interesting to see a study done that looked at MBTI and gender through the lens of cognition rather than the dichotomy 4 letter test code (which in my opinion, is highly inaccurate and biased).

  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    No, I dont think there is any correlation whatsoever between typology and sexuality.

    I knew there was an LGBT but an LGBTQAASLKGHDSLTOU or whatever? Really? Sort of wondering when the sort of need for constant novelty and something different being applied from other spheres of human life to human sexual behaviour is going to exhaust itself.

  3. #13
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I knew there was an LGBT but an LGBTQAASLKGHDSLTOU or whatever? Really? Sort of wondering when the sort of need for constant novelty and something different being applied from other spheres of human life to human sexual behaviour is going to exhaust itself.
    I think it's kind of silly to go beyond LGBT, personally. If just for the fact that the acronym gets unwieldy (defeating the purpose of an acronym). Further being is it's pretty well understood that it represents individuals who aren't straight or of a typical sexuality. I get why it's done though; inclusivity (something the LGBT community is sensitive about).
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I think it's kind of silly to go beyond LGBT, personally. If just for the fact that the acronym gets unwieldy (defeating the purpose of an acronym). Further being is it's pretty well understood that it represents individuals who aren't straight or of a typical sexuality. I get why it's done though; inclusivity (something the LGBT community is sensitive about).
    I'm not even sure that LGBT is a great combination as it is, I understand the goal of inclusivity but do you go as far as designing something like Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transexual and Heterosexual? Its the logical outcome of being compelled by inclusivity, in the past I've made remark on how in the UK at least, and probably the US, there have been problems as a direct consequence of that inclusivity, sex offender identities have tried hard to sneak themselves in under the umbrella of alt sexuality.

    In the UK Liberty, the civil liberties group was taken in by some peadophile network arguing they were a discriminated minority sexual orientation, in the US the North American Man Boy Love Association sought, successfully sometimes, to ally itself with liberal, communist and other alt political associations.

    Its interesting to hear anyone still refer to heterosexuality as typical or straight as the norm in the way your post does, then again you are posting outside of the UK and its aggressive normalisation of homosexuality.

    It does become unwieldy and I think that it raises questions, there are people who are transexuals I know who dont identify with homosexuality, bisexuality or lesbianism, there are others still who are homosexual, bisexual and lesbian who dont identify as transexual. I think there was an alliance struck at a time when they all felt similarly rejected by the majority but it was a shot gun wedding for a lot of people. Adding still other identities is questionable again. I've known homosexuals who were critical of gay parades and protests in NI because they felt that the demonstrations attracted the weirdest and most deliberately "scene" characters it was possible, alienating, intentionally or accidentially, who swarths of the population.

    For instance I've had interesting discussions with male homosexual friends who reject the association of homosexuality with fetishist and BDSM communities but admitted that the representation of the same at gay demos did little to break any association in the public mind relating to the same.

  5. #15
    Member Paris34's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I think it's kind of silly to go beyond LGBT, personally. If just for the fact that the acronym gets unwieldy (defeating the purpose of an acronym). Further being is it's pretty well understood that it represents individuals who aren't straight or of a typical sexuality. I get why it's done though; inclusivity (something the LGBT community is sensitive about).
    I do agree that it gets a bit ridiculous to try to fit every label into a catch all umbrella term abbreviation, but I do see why its done. The one I tend to use LGBT+ or LGBTQA+, I tend to veer on the side adding the plus sign so that other labels that aren't included for simplicities sake, don't feel excluded.

  6. #16
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    I discovered I was attracted to other guys by developing a crush on another guy and going on to experience countless subsequent instances of attraction to males. I never asked any questions to do that. There was as much deliberation involved as there is in such mentally exhausting tasks as recognizing that a rose is red and that a fish smells displeasing. In other words, my sexuality was discovered through simple perception. There was no reasoning involved except in the area of selecting a label for my orientation, which was beside the matter of knowing my orientation. I think it's that area of selecting a label that gets some people going around and around in circles, because there is usually not much room to be confused about whether you like something or not, even if your degree of fondness for a thing happens to fluctuate. The only type of thing that you can really be unsure whether you like or not is something unknown to you. Most of the things involved in romantic and sexual attraction are well known to everyone by the time they're 10. By that point you know most of what there is to know about the human psyche, personal relationships, and the male and female body structures. If you nevertheless find yourself questioning your orientation, my guess would be that you're over-thinking things quite a bit, which is something I associate with Ne and Ti types.

    Obviously, nothing I said really addresses the experiences of a transgendered person. Those are experiences I'm not fully entitled to speak on, never having felt very much at odds with my biological gender. It's really a very different set of issues than being gay, although we're often grouped together and I'm perfectly glad to stand beside transgendered people in some sense.
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  7. #17
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not even sure that LGBT is a great combination as it is, I understand the goal of inclusivity but do you go as far as designing something like Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transexual and Heterosexual? Its the logical outcome of being compelled by inclusivity, in the past I've made remark on how in the UK at least, and probably the US, there have been problems as a direct consequence of that inclusivity, sex offender identities have tried hard to sneak themselves in under the umbrella of alt sexuality.
    The point of it is to refer to minority sexual orientations. Since hetereosexuality is largely considered "normal" (and when I say that I am not implying that anything else is abnormal), it would be excluded from the term. It's a population/commonality term. When someone says racial minorities, they refer to everyone that would not be part of the most common race in the area.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its interesting to hear anyone still refer to heterosexuality as typical or straight as the norm in the way your post does, then again you are posting outside of the UK and its aggressive normalisation of homosexuality.
    I can't comment on how the UK is acting towards homosexuality since I am not well versed in how it's approached there. The reason I say hetereosexuality is typical or the norm is because it is. It's a fact. The majority of the worlds population falls under the category of hetereosexual. To refer to it in any other manner is just in correct. With that said, I think the term aggressive normalization is unfair. Nearly all sexual orientations could easily be considered normal. The main reason is they occur naturally, and aren't harmful. The major exception to this would be pedophilia due to the fact that it very often is harmful (and this would be considered abnormal).


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    It does become unwieldy and I think that it raises questions, there are people who are transexuals I know who dont identify with homosexuality, bisexuality or lesbianism, there are others still who are homosexual, bisexual and lesbian who dont identify as transexual. I think there was an alliance struck at a time when they all felt similarly rejected by the majority but it was a shot gun wedding for a lot of people. Adding still other identities is questionable again. I've known homosexuals who were critical of gay parades and protests in NI because they felt that the demonstrations attracted the weirdest and most deliberately "scene" characters it was possible, alienating, intentionally or accidentially, who swarths of the population.

    For instance I've had interesting discussions with male homosexual friends who reject the association of homosexuality with fetishist and BDSM communities but admitted that the representation of the same at gay demos did little to break any association in the public mind relating to the same.
    It really is just a term/label. Most implicitly know what it means. Ultimately it's a semantics argument and I do not get involved in those. Nearly everyone knows what it means, and that's good enough.

    I'm gay and I am not actively involved in the community, I just don't have an interest. I have more fun in other communities. If you observe any type of minority movement, or any oppressed group really, the deviant, atypical, rabble-raisers, and attention grabbers are the loudest and most prominant. I personally have a very strong distaste for people who cause civil unrest that disrupts the livelyhoods of those not involved in the conflict regardless of what it is for. When you alienate or anger others, they'll dig their heels in further. It just doesn't work. I do not feel it gets the job done and in this modern there are better ways to get the job done.
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  8. #18
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I think it's kind of silly to go beyond LGBT, personally. If just for the fact that the acronym gets unwieldy (defeating the purpose of an acronym). Further being is it's pretty well understood that it represents individuals who aren't straight or of a typical sexuality. I get why it's done though; inclusivity (something the LGBT community is sensitive about).
    Yeah, but some of these attempts to be inclusionary are rather a fiasco. Aside from the uneasy alliance between trans and G/L (you can overlap and be both L/G and trans), the Intersexed (for example) don't even necessarily want to be included. I attended an Intersex workshop a few years ago at the Philly Trans healthcare conference and the intersexed guy there explained they were never even asked, there was no "alliance" of intersexed folks, and they typically did not even want to be called out -- it was a traumatic experience, not one of "pride" and making themselves public at that time. So at least in that particular sector, the attempts to be "inclusionary" were really just the idea of one of the gay/queer groups deciding for everyone else what would be good for them... it might have been well-intended but in some ways was a negative example.

    Anyway, bailing on that topic. It's not the topic of the thread (although a new thread could be started on that issue if people cared to do so). To get back to the topic at hand, I don't think MBTI and non-cis/not-het stuff is necessarily related on a biological level; however, I think type can strongly influence how easily one can arrive at and embrace an identity that is non-cis/non-het. Some types have trouble challenging the status quo or have trouble with an internal and/or feeling-based locus of resolving identity.
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  9. #19
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paris34 View Post
    I've seen those studies and I don't doubt that they hold merit and creditability, however I tend to hold a bias towards and veer away from things that reinforce the stereotypes of sexuality. It was those stereotypes that caused me so much confusion and one of the main reasons why it took me so long to realize my own sexuality. I thought that all lesbians had to be butch with short hair, play sports when they were younger, ect, and stereotypes are much deeper rooted in us than we care to admit and they take longer than a snap of the finger to move past. So, after years of dealing with internal struggles myself, I don't want to reinforce their validity as I understand the harm that they can do, and I don't want other people to have to struggle the same way I did.
    I'm fine with all that. I certainly don't think it's true that every (or even a big majority) of gay men are effeminate, or that a every lesbians (or even a big majority) are butch. Still, I think it's hard to argue that gay men, on average, are a little bit more effeminate that straight men, even if any given gay man might fall anywhere on the spectrum. I think one can be empirically descriptive without resorting to stereotypes.

    Certainly for myself I wonder if I over-emphasize being masculine because of fear of playing into gay stereotypes. It's hard to be entirely certain. Of course, as a computer programmer I have the freedom to come across as a geek, which is a nice out at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris34 View Post
    That being said, I'm sure there is correlation. And it is quite fascinating actually, as it might correspond to amounts of testosterone/estrogen that you are exposed to when in utero that can indicate sexuality. I know for males they have a higher chance of being gay if they have older brothers. This likely because the mother's testosterone levels drop with each son born, resulting in less testosterone available for the next child. (I could also just be speaking out my a** here so please, please correct me if i'm wrong -> I'm an art major, not biology.) I guess the question to ask here would be does MBTI correlate to the level's of testosterone or estrogen that a person is exposed to?
    I could certainly see T vs F correlating, although I'd more surprised if other aspects did. In Big Five terms, Agreeableness tends to correlate (negatively) with testosterone. While MBTI Feeling is a little more narrow than Big Five Agreeableness (Feeling doesn't incorporate tendency to trust others, for example), that study is a little bit of evidence (however tentative) that testosterone levels might affect the T/F preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris34 View Post
    It could be, but if we drop all of the stereotypes of the dichotomy and look at the functions as a combination of learned and innate behaviors that are ways of perceiving the world. F - is looking for meaning; T - looking for use. Fi - personal meaning;Fe - external meaning. Te - external use and order; Ti - internal use and order. They could correspond and relate to the stereotypes of gender. It would be interesting to see a study done that looked at MBTI and gender through the lens of cognition rather than the dichotomy 4 letter test code (which in my opinion, is highly inaccurate and biased).
    Well, I'd say that seeing things as dichotomies is overly reductive, and strength of preference plays a big role empirically (where a weak preference appears to lead to a weak behavioral effect). Still, I could see that preferences could have a notable effect in how the coming out process plays out for someone. Certainly the SPs I know (especially the ESPs) tended to spend less time agonizing about things internally before acting externally.

  10. #20
    climb on Showbread's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    e
    Any self-aware type will probably have an easier time figuring out their sexuality. I don't think having certain cognitive processes will help anyone figuring out their sexuality, but maybe behavioral patterns exhibited by the types might. I'd say INFPs would probably have an easier time than ESTJs for example, though an ESTJ may have an easier time coming out.
    Last semester two of my female roommates started dating each other. The INTJ had known she was bi since early high school and while she had never actually come out to us, we all knew. INFP roommate on the other hand was 21 years old and had no clue she had the potential to be attracted to women. In fact, she didn't even realize she had feelings for INTJ roommate until we all basically told her. Once they started dating she and I were talking and I asked her if she had even been attracted to women before to which she responded "No, but, I figured INTJ roommate and I where really good friends so why not? I've never really been attracted to guys either." I don't understand how that works, or how you can just not know you are attracted to someone. But, obviously I can only speak from my experience, which is quite limited.
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