[MBTI General] N v. S

[Nigel Tufnel]

well if you prefer to be rude then i suppose you dont mind offending people by stereotyping them.

going through life being rude and offensive though will limit your life

but its your life so good luck to you.

speaking of sterotypes, I have an INFP friend who is so politically correct it's sickening, and likes to point fingers at others who dare to express a controversial viewpoint, rather than debating the content of what they've said, interesting that you share his letters

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

They generally serve to to enhance our own self-identity and are harmful in that they are the foundation for prejudice and discrimination.

what sorts of data do you have that supports your assertions?

 

[Frank]

I can't understand how anyone could dislike ENFJs or have issues with them because they are so good at diplomacy and genuine empathy. But maybe it's just that I find them irresistable.

I consider myself lucky to be married to one.

So stereotyping is good in this case?

 

[Jack Flak]

So stereotypings good in this case?

ISFPs never stereotype.

 

[Athenian200]

Sure, I understand why it happens. It seems obvious that the people who say that aren't very knowledgable about temperament, or not very good at accurately determining the type of others around them. If someone chooses to believe that they can't talk with people who prefer Sensing because all such people are supposed to be shallow, stupid, vapid, etc., then isn't it inevitable that they will believe that everyone they meet who isn't stupid/shallow/vapid must prefer Intuition? It's self-fulfilling belief, because there's no way anybody can prove otherwise.

Yes, very insightful. I think you're probably right.

That sounds exactly right, from my point of view. Thank you for articulating it so well.

Which is why I'm thinking being here is probably just a huge waste of my time. What I'm getting by way of feedback (not from you, Athenian -- just in general) is that negative stereotypes are fun, and it's a blast to spread them around and wallow in them. Anyone who doesn't agree with them is not supposed to ruin it for the people having fun. If anyone calls the stereotypes ridiculous, then they must deal with being blasted for being "oversensitive" or "politically correct", even though their comments were simply statements of disagreement rather than an attempt to pretend that reality is other than it is. This is something I can definitely live without, so I doubt I'll be spending much time here this new year. Anyone whom I've enjoyed talking with, feel free to PM me if you want to chat about something, but I'm pretty much done with the discussion board.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I understand why you feel frustrated with people not wanting to take these things seriously and wanting to have fun at other people's expense instead... I've felt the same way before, exactly the same way. The thing is, I don't think you leaving will solve anything. There's still always the individuals who will accept and listen to what you say, and the friends you've made here who'd like you to stay, not because it's productive, but because they're... well, your friends. It's not like every discussion has to be about MBTI.

I think you're kind of stressed out right now, and you probably feel like you want to throw out everything that isn't productive or meaningful, stand up and look down on all those ignorant, hurtful people who are short-sighted, self-indulgent and unwilling to listen to unpleasant truths, and then leave in disgust. But I think that you should really wait until you're feeling a bit less angry and focused, and more like an SFP than an NTJ, before you make this decision.

 

[Misty_Mountain_Rose]

Some Ns have no concept of making small talk and will immediately launch into some deep, serious subject at the worst time. Reminds me of the time a N friend brought up 'life after death' on a chairlift at Park City!

What are you TALKING about! Riding on a chair lift might conjure thoughts of dying if you fell off of it or if it broke! What better time to discuss life after death... The initial feeling that sparked the conversation was grounded in reality. I think that's a very good link from S to N...

 

[tinkerbell]

I work in an environment that is 95% S type - just find me a wall to bash my head against.

Trying to keep them focused on overall purpose instead of the bits and peices is a total nightmare, it drives me absolutely insane. That said I also know I drive them crackers too - it's such hard work.

I know that on some levels its really good for me, but so frustrating when you are trying to get things done.

Lis

 

[Jeffster]

Which is why I'm thinking being here is probably just a huge waste of my time. What I'm getting by way of feedback (not from you, Athenian -- just in general) is that negative stereotypes are fun, and it's a blast to spread them around and wallow in them. Anyone who doesn't agree with them is not supposed to ruin it for the people having fun. If anyone calls the stereotypes ridiculous, then they must deal with being blasted for being "oversensitive" or "politically correct", even though their comments were simply statements of disagreement rather than an attempt to pretend that reality is other than it is. This is something I can definitely live without, so I doubt I'll be spending much time here this new year. Anyone whom I've enjoyed talking with, feel free to PM me if you want to chat about something, but I'm pretty much done with the discussion board.

You've also gotten quite a bit of positive feedback also. Sorry if I didn't give you enough for the posts where you were on a roll. I'm sorry if you stop reading the site or posting because I find most of your contributions to be awesome. I was even going to ask you to help me with my SP temperament topic. I think trying to get anyone who has false stereotypes to change their views all at once is pretty much impossible. But there's no way to measure how many people who don't speak up have come to a better understanding based on the things that you and me and other Sensing types have posted. I hope you won't give up on that, even at the same time that I hope you'll lighten up about it. Hopefully that made sense, and you can always chat with me anytime, just so you know.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

I work in an environment that is 95% S type - just find me a wall to bash my head against.

What survival tactics have you developed? How do you let your creative ideas get out?

 

[ptgatsby]

Stereotyping is required for efficiency. Always basing opinions on individuals is inefficient and illogical.

It'd be quite logical, actually, just not practical. It is inefficient, yet it is most efficient to have no information on which to base your conclusion - obviously not the ideal situation. The effort and effect are all done at the margin, so the early additions add significant value, the later ones less so.

An example of a much poorer stereotype would be the S - 66% of the population, even along a single axis of measurement, is so broad that it loses significant meaning. On the other hand, 33% of Ns is well defined, not surprisingly, because they don't even pass through average scores (guesstimate about 0.5 std dev above norm?), while Ss do... So Ns gain a smaller (25-33%) division and a narrow definition (scoring above 66-75% of the population on this axis)... and likewise, Ss gain no practical division (66-75% of the population) and no practical definition (constituting only the removal of part of the population that would be at the outer edges of this trait - have all normals and stronger traits in a large population sample).

This is to illustrate that the weaker your stereotype (ie: the more efficient it is), the less accurate it is. As always, it's the same as type I and type II errors. You must trade off - and we can choose to do it for efficiency, or we can do it for our own biases and/or hide our lazy thinking.

 

[tinkerbell]

What survival tactics have you developed? How do you let your creative ideas get out?

ewe - a mix between just hanging on in there, being a bit fiesty, doing lots of deomnstration, being a high performer who delivers - gives them confidence I'm not full of shit. actually walking them through things, giving them critical paths and expectations, showing them what they can use stuff for. attempting to get people focused on the issues they need to look at - and tolerating they are coming from a different perspective/skill sets

Still it's a lot of effort - in other places a conversation that would take 30 minutes can take many weeks and be really stressful

Sadly there is no magic bullets.

Fortunately my boss is great so a real support

Lis

 

[Anja]

Yesterday I cleaned out the spare room with my ISTJ. What seemed to me to be a simple job, easily accomplished, turned into a full day of finding labels to put on the boxes, two different kinds of markers, a color coding system, complete with dates, and on and on and on. Argh! Just move the effin' boxes!

In our favor? Neither of us bit the other's head off. Not once. (Both wanted to.) Yay us. Doing a chore together is nearly always stepping into a mine field. And it's rarely about what needs to be done but rather about how it needs to be done.

Fine responses to Sarah from Athenian and Jeffster. Useful info there. (Even though all the time I suspect The Jeffster was tryin' ta sneak a peek up Sarah's skirt. )

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

Still it's a lot of effort - in other places a conversation that would take 30 minutes can take many weeks and be really stressful

Sadly there is no magic bullets.

Interesting, but sounds like you've built some tolerance for it.

Few years back, I was hired by a CEO of a company to set strategy for a product that was declining in market share. Went to meet with his marketing staff and they were also 95% Ss, maybe more. They kept discussing which minor software bugs needed to be tweaked, which VPs needed to be copied on which e-mails, and whose turn it was to update Microsoft Project, but when I asked them who their top 3 competitors were, they struggled to name them, and knew next to nothing about their products. Without needing to read through all their documents or go through a list of product features, I just went back to the CEO and recommended that above all, he hire more creative thinkers and re-assign much of the existing staff. I didn't even bill half the hours assigned to the project the problem was so obvious. Within 8 months, they were able to turn things around by moving the Ss to another group, and re-staffing the entire product management group. That CEO is now a close business contact, and still can't believe how quickly I diagnosed his marketing problem.

 

[tinkerbell]

Hi NT

Yes I've had to lear a fair bit of tollerance, but I could be better, I still find it supreemly furstating at times. I need to be more patient with people.

Sounds like it was really good advice, wouldn't expect marketeers to be S types - maybe people who are flitting through, marketing is so creative. It's amazing what having the right people in place can do for business

Anyways I'm now on the lookout for new opportunities, the market is not hot but will move, it always does. Hopefully my next job will be a wee bit more balanced - I'll be sure to check it out before I sign on the dotted line.

L

 

[ptgatsby]

Sounds like it was really good advice, wouldn't expect marketeers to be S types - maybe people who are flitting through, marketing is so creative. It's amazing what having the right people in place can do for business

In reference to the general conversation, I honestly hope you do not use MBTI in your own company(ies) hiring or staffing decisions (as it sucks to hear you use the S/N divide in this way, personally, but would be even worse if I knew it was actually being used as a discriminatory bias against real people!)

Anyway, marketing is not geared for Ns in the first place. Self selection suggests it is for E--Ps, IIRC.

 

[Amargith]

A friend of mine took a test at her job. They said it was purely for herself, so she could understand people and as such her collegues better, but she suspects that one of the reasons she gets certain opportunities that others don't is coz they know she's an INTJ...

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

Anyway, marketing is not geared for Ns in the first place. Self selection suggests it is for E--Ps, IIRC.

Product Marketing is dominated by Ns. Need people there to deal with limited structure, create original marketing ideas, and pay close attention to the outside world by monitoring the competition. Product Development is dominated by Ss. Need people there to make sure developers hit deadlines, that the product works as advertised, and pay no attention to the outside world because they're so focused on getting a great product out the door.

What happens if you put one into the wrong place is that they'll end up doing the other's job. Been doing this long enough to see it happens many times. No other factor - schooling, intelligence, college major - better predicts the right fit than the N-S indicator.

Also very silly to claim it's prejudice. This business is filled with Indians, women, SE Asians, West Africans, WASPs, Russians, Israelis, Brits, you name it. Being an N or an S doesn't predict whether you can contribute to the company, but it does tell where you're most likely to be successful.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

In reference to the general conversation, I honestly hope you do not use MBTI in your own company(ies) hiring or staffing decisions.

don't need to test, a lot of HR people can tell pretty quickly, although ENTPs are best at mimicking other types if they really want to, I don't even work in HR and I can predict what will happen if you put a person in a particular job, was told more than once that my ability to do this accurately was uncanny, which is why HR people starting asking me back for consulting projects, even though I made it clear there was no magic to what I was doing

N/S doesn't explain everything, so you have to be able to identify situations where it won't help, but it's simply a better predictor of job performance than any other measure that's out there

 

[BlueScreen]

A friend of mine took a test at her job. They said it was purely for herself, so she could understand people and as such her collegues better, but she suspects that one of the reasons she gets certain opportunities that others don't is coz they know she's an INTJ...

But if they use her in a way that INTJ is more suited to than other types I think it is okay, because then it is just making the most of a worker and keeping them fulfilled. If they assume she is the most intelligent in the company as a result of being INTJ, it is probably not good. This makes me think that I better learn how to bias my test scores to give ENTP also... I'd love to know if ENFP gets a good or bad view in companies in terms of type.

 

[Amargith]

But if they use her in a way that INTJ is more suited to than other types I think it is okay, because then it is just making the most of a worker and keeping them fulfilled. If they assume she is the most intelligent in the company as a result of being INTJ, it is probably not good. This makes me think that I better learn how to bias my test scores to give ENTP also... I'd love to know if ENFP gets a good or bad view in companies in terms of type.

You're not the only one. They mostly use her to make things more efficient and listen to her when she says that changes are needed. She's also up for a management position. Now, truth be told, that she isn't a very strong I and she does work well with other women apparently.