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Thread: N v. S

  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Isn't that what you do?
    Uh, I'm paid by companies who choose to bring me in. You're really stretching it if you're trying to mix recommendations companies voluntarily pay for with mandatory regulations that cost them money.

    I know "stereotype" has a nice holier-than-thou ring to it, and you and the other Ss offended by this thread keep resorting to it, but no successful business wants to put people in the wrong jobs in order to satisfy a few whiny finger pointers. I think the actual MBTI test is bs, and unnecessary, but the traits associated with each type give you a good idea of the skills needed for a certain job. Having been in technology for years, I've seen that as a matter of practice, an observed (not tested) ENTP from San Jose State is very likely to be a far better fit for a competitive analyst position than an observed ISTJ from Stanford. Similarly, an ISTJ from Chico State is very likely to be a better fit for an Accounting Manager than an ENTP from Stanford.


    Very likely means 70 to 90% chance, so yes there are successful Ns in Acctounting and successful Ss is Strategy, but can't tell you how many times I've seen top school ESTJs get promoted and then struggle with strategic decisions, relying on textbook ideas and getting pounded by their bosses for "not seeing the bigger picture".

    Most important thing for anyone is to have clear goals, regardless of whether they love MBTI or hate it. But an ENTP planning a career in Accounting or an ESTJ planning a career in Strategy will do best when they consciously acknowledge their approach will differ from the majority of people in their field.

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Uh, I'm paid by companies who choose to bring me in. You're really stretching it if you're trying to mix recommendations companies voluntarily pay for with mandatory regulations that cost them money.

    I know "stereotype" has a nice holier-than-thou ring to it, and you and the other Ss offended by this thread keep resorting to it, but no successful business wants to put people in the wrong jobs in order to satisfy a few whiny finger pointers. I think the actual MBTI test is bs, and unnecessary, but the traits associated with each type give you a good idea of the skills needed for a certain job. Having been in technology for years, I've seen that as a matter of practice, an observed (not tested) ENTP from San Jose State is very likely to be a far better fit for a competitive analyst position than an observed ISTJ from Stanford. Similarly, an ISTJ from Chico State is very likely to be a better fit for an Accounting Manager than an ENTP from Stanford.


    Very likely means 70 to 90% chance, so yes there are successful Ns in Acctounting and successful Ss is Strategy, but can't tell you how many times I've seen top school ESTJs get promoted and then struggle with strategic decisions, relying on textbook ideas and getting pounded by their bosses for "not seeing the bigger picture".

    Most important thing for anyone is to have clear goals, regardless of whether they love MBTI or hate it. But an ENTP planning a career in Accounting or an ESTJ planning a career in Strategy will do best when they consciously acknowledge their approach will differ from the majority of people in their field.

    Question: doesn't your bias towards the types you generally 'äppreciate' more, get in the way though? I see you mostly using T's as 'positive' example, for instance, athough that might be coincidence
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  3. #193
    Member Nat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Uh, I'm paid by companies who choose to bring me in. You're really stretching it if you're trying to mix recommendations companies voluntarily pay for with mandatory regulations that cost them money.

    I know "stereotype" has a nice holier-than-thou ring to it, and you and the other Ss offended by this thread keep resorting to it, but no successful business wants to put people in the wrong jobs in order to satisfy a few whiny finger pointers. I think the actual MBTI test is bs, and unnecessary, but the traits associated with each type give you a good idea of the skills needed for a certain job. Having been in technology for years, I've seen that as a matter of practice, an observed (not tested) ENTP from San Jose State is very likely to be a far better fit for a competitive analyst position than an observed ISTJ from Stanford. Similarly, an ISTJ from Chico State is very likely to be a better fit for an Accounting Manager than an ENTP from Stanford.


    Very likely means 70 to 90% chance, so yes there are successful Ns in Acctounting and successful Ss is Strategy, but can't tell you how many times I've seen top school ESTJs get promoted and then struggle with strategic decisions, relying on textbook ideas and getting pounded by their bosses for "not seeing the bigger picture".

    Most important thing for anyone is to have clear goals, regardless of whether they love MBTI or hate it. But an ENTP planning a career in Accounting or an ESTJ planning a career in Strategy will do best when they consciously acknowledge their approach will differ from the majority of people in their field.

    I work for a small consulting firm and we all took the test to supposedly "communicate better", however I do think they were using it for a purpose similar to what you're discussing because I was asked a whole string of questions in my job interview that would give an indication of type.

    My bosses did admit there were certain types that they would not hire, of which we "luckily" did not have. At the time we had NFs, NTs and SJs. I guess that's a no to any SPs. From the conversation, it did seem that my bosses thought T was more desirable than F.... probably not surprising since we analyse business issues.

    I know my profile says INFJ but I tested as an ENFJ. I'd be interested in knowing what type/types you think are suited for consulting.

  4. #194
    sophiloist Kaizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Question: doesn't your bias towards the types you generally 'äppreciate' more, get in the way though? I see you mostly using T's as 'positive' example, for instance, athough that might be coincidence
    type helps with likable (or appropriate in 'non-personal' interaction) ppl cause it helps with communication.. depth and overlap/interface etc
    type doesn't determine who is good or bad
    now if only more ppl were more aware of the roots and causes of personality traits

  5. #195
    sophiloist Kaizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I know my profile says INFJ but I tested as ENFJ. I'd be interested in knowing what type/types you think are suited for consulting.
    ENFJ in consulting = upper management sooner than most .... sample size 1

  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I work for a small consulting firm and we all took the test to supposedly "communicate better", however I do think they were using it for a purpose similar to what you're discussing because I was asked a whole string of questions in my job interview that would give an indication of type.
    The current trend is not to use MBTI, but rather colors (implicitly based on MBTI) as a more politically correct way of providing communications workshops. So instead of four letters, they tell you're a "red", "green", or "blue".

    My bosses did admit there were certain types that they would not hire, of which we "luckily" did not have. At the time we had NFs, NTs and SJs. I guess that's a no to any SPs. From the conversation, it did seem that my bosses thought T was more desirable than F.... probably not surprising since we analyse business issues.
    Stunning, this is rare, usually firms don't like to discuss this. I've seen companies bias against Ps for disorganization and Fs for lack of ability with facts and figures, but I would never recommend they do this.

    I know my profile says INFJ but I tested as an ENFJ. I'd be interested in knowing what type/types you think are suited for consulting.
    Depends on the type of consulting. ENFJs are one the most common Fs in business, and generally get on well with the ENTXs who dominate strategic consulting firms, and can advance in these firms because their people skills are usually better than the ENTs. Often, the ENFJs have better business development skills than the ENTs, which is usually the most important skill required to advance in a larger consulting firm. But they also need a strategy to deal with the ENTs who are likely to be very well-informed and disrespecting of others who aren't. ENFJs are also outstanding in HR (not payroll or compensation, but HR strategy) consulting.

    Anecdotally, I know an ENFJ who used to work for one of the brand name consultancies, and was extremely popular there, and was promoted quickly. She worked well with clients, everyone used to comment on how nice she was, and she came across as very "real", i.e. not having any sort of facade.

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Question: doesn't your bias towards the types you generally 'äppreciate' more, get in the way though? I see you mostly using T's as 'positive' example, for instance, athough that might be coincidence
    Only bias I have against ENFP is that my girlfriend is one.

    I deal with the corporate world, which is very "T" heavy. That said, many of the best salespeople I've met are male Fs. Female Fs can be good at sales too, but they also get into HR and PR heavily, which tend to have far fewer guys than sales, F, T, or otherwise.

    I know an ESFP woman who was a great marketing exec, and ENFJs are fairly common as sales execs. While there might be some good ISFs out there, never met one who was an effective business executive, although seen a few get promoted to mid-level jobs because of their personal relationships. George HW Bush is often listed as ISFx and he made money in oil, so it's not impossible for any type to succeed in business, but it is extremely rare to see an ISF running a company or large division.

  8. #198
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Uh, I'm paid by companies who choose to bring me in. You're really stretching it if you're trying to mix recommendations companies voluntarily pay for with mandatory regulations that cost them money.
    What?

    1) I said nothing about mandatory regulations, or regulations, or anything even close to that. You introduced this concept, and I don't see how it applied then, or now.

    2) It's not relevant how you are brought in. Consultants can be hired by any firm, paid any amount, and use as effective or ineffective, be prejudiced or any other behavior involved. It does not make it an ethical use of a system for the consultant or the company.

    All you are doing is crutching your biases in the system, which as I said, is fine by me. If you associate your pick-and-choose method with some personality matrix theory, then... so be it. I think it is ineffective, but everyone justifies their biases in some way. This one doesn't even fit on my radar anymore, given how bad I have seen it.

    I know "stereotype" has a nice holier-than-thou ring to it, and you and the other Ss offended by this thread keep resorting to it, but no successful business wants to put people in the wrong jobs in order to satisfy a few whiny finger pointers.
    Wow, good reversal on your behaviors. I've dealt with lots of consultants and so forth, and they only care about the problem in front of them... just as I know you don't care about false positives - you can eliminate most of the population unfairly and get the right person most of the time as a result... and that's what you are attempting to do. It's ok though, because you are simply introducing a hidden cost that you don't have to face because your success rate is high.

    The only impact it has on me is that I don't get hired by people like you, despite being able to do the job, and likely better. I don't care because I know how it works in the big picture - you over emphasize traits that don't matter, thus absorbing workers on the wrong metrics, leaving gaps in the workforce that would be better at the job, where companies that do not do this will hire me. The correlation between them and being bigger and better companies with a higher pay scale is strong, leading to a better market for myself.

    It's the standard economic situation of discrimination backfiring on the discriminator. The only reason I care here is because I have a strong aversion to mistaken stereotypes being perpetuated

    Very likely means 70 to 90% chance, so yes there are successful Ns in Accounting
    Accounting is overreprestend by Ns, by population. T and J are the dominant factors here. You are generally better off hiring an N given the T and the J are already present. Again, you conflate the wrong dimensions to a particular job class, and preferences against the wrong axis. *

    The issue I have here is that you are constantly perpetuating stereotypes. Even though pointing these out, and other misconceptions, may seem like 'holier than...' to you, it's not. Holier than though is, perhaps, something you do need. I'm not terribly good at it though, especially if my past encounters with ENTPs here is used as a baseline.

    *
    Link here Red numbers are general population
    Some research has used the MBTI to study personality profiles of accountants. The accounting firm of Ernst & Young reportedly has used Myers-Briggs for many years to develop profiles of their professional staff. A summary provided at a recent conference for accounting program administrators showed these results (courtesy of Thomas J. Frecka):

    17% ISTJ (Introversion, Sensing, Thinking, Judging)11-14%
    17% ESTJ (Extraversion, Sensing, Thinking, Judging)8-12%
    12% ENTJ (Extraversion, Intuitive, Thinking, Judging)2-5%
    9% INTJ (Introversion, Intuitive, Thinking, Judging)2-4%
    Jacoby (1981) studied a sample of 333 accountants employed by public accounting firms in Washington, D.C. Jacoby found the following MBTI types in this sample:

    19.8% ISTJ (Introversion, Sensing, Thinking, Judging)11-14%
    13.8% ESTJ (Extraversion, Sensing, Thinking, Judging)8-12%
    12.3% INTJ (Introversion, Intuitive, Thinking, Judging)2-4%

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Accounting is overreprestend by Ns, by population. T and J are the dominant factors here. You are generally better off hiring an N given the T and the J are already present. Again, you conflate the wrong dimensions to a particular job class, and preferences against the wrong axis. *
    *
    Link here Red numbers are general population
    Some research has used the MBTI to study personality profiles of accountants. The accounting firm of Ernst & Young reportedly has used Myers-Briggs for many years to develop profiles of their professional staff. A summary provided at a recent conference for accounting program administrators showed these results (courtesy of Thomas J. Frecka):

    17% ISTJ (Introversion, Sensing, Thinking, Judging)11-14%
    17% ESTJ (Extraversion, Sensing, Thinking, Judging)8-12%
    12% ENTJ (Extraversion, Intuitive, Thinking, Judging)2-5%
    9% INTJ (Introversion, Intuitive, Thinking, Judging)2-4%
    Jacoby (1981) studied a sample of 333 accountants employed by public accounting firms in Washington, D.C. Jacoby found the following MBTI types in this sample:

    19.8% ISTJ (Introversion, Sensing, Thinking, Judging)11-14%
    13.8% ESTJ (Extraversion, Sensing, Thinking, Judging)8-12%
    12.3% INTJ (Introversion, Intuitive, Thinking, Judging)2-4%
    Ha! I knew it. It's no place for an INTP, that's fer shure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    That was hot!
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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