User Tag List

First 91718192021 Last

Results 181 to 190 of 212

Thread: N v. S

  1. #181
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    Product Marketing is dominated by Ns.
    I don't actually disagree, as I'm not sure - the only reference I remember is that the two most dominant axises are extroversion and perception. That does, however, make me question 'the most important factor' bit, even within this narrow scope.

    Need people there to deal with limited structure, create original marketing ideas, and pay close attention to the outside world by monitoring the competition. Product Development is dominated by Ss. Need people there to make sure developers hit deadlines, that the product works as advertised, and pay no attention to the outside world because they're so focused on getting a great product out the door.
    You just described deadlines, tangibility and focus as S traits, while associating creativity and large picture viewing with Ns. IOW, you just described a mix of S and J traits with N and P traits, at best... the main focus is on the J/P portions.

    What happens if you put one into the wrong place is that they'll end up doing the other's job. Been doing this long enough to see it happens many times. No other factor - schooling, intelligence, college major - better predicts the right fit than the N-S indicator.
    Perhaps with product development or marketing in particular because this is not the case in general.

    Also very silly to claim it's prejudice. This business is filled with Indians, women, SE Asians, West Africans, WASPs, Russians, Israelis, Brits, you name it. Being an N or an S doesn't predict whether you can contribute to the company, but it does tell where you're most likely to be successful.
    Not a claim, but an open ended statement. Since you are not using the system and placing according to it, it is only your biases that are a factor - that I don't worry about.

    It wouldn't matter how multicultural the company is - if it does something, it does it, and if they use the system in a prejudiced manner, then they are predjudiced. You have use a lot of blanket statements in your posts above this one, and so I would say that your thinking is prejudiced - that is, you have prejudged a person's capabilities not on the demonstration of them, but based on your general rule of thumb of a person's type.

    However, that is for you to wrestle on - it's not a slight, we all do this to some degree. It's when it turns into giving the test and deciding based on it that you would be in a breach of ethics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    N/S doesn't explain everything, so you have to be able to identify situations where it won't help, but it's simply a better predictor of job performance than any other measure that's out there
    No, it's not. This is an artifact of IQ distribution inside N - essentially distilling IQ to magnify the effect. It is literally the IQ component in N that is giving you that impression - remove IQ, and it's non-predictive (or generally close to in systems that use distributions.)

  2. #182
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    You're not the only one. They mostly use her to make things more efficient and listen to her when she says that changes are needed. She's also up for a management position. Now, truth be told, that she isn't a very strong I and she does work well with other women apparently.
    That's not unusual - INTJs are the most over-represented type in management (the higher you go, the more they are, too!) ENTJs don't even come close - it's the particular mindset of an INTJ that does it. Keep in mind, however, that while INTJs are related to management positions, they still make up a minority of the positions.

  3. #183
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Posts
    3,424

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    An example of a much poorer stereotype would be the S - 66% of the population, even along a single axis of measurement, is so broad that it loses significant meaning. On the other hand, 33% of Ns is well defined, not surprisingly, because they don't even pass through average scores (guesstimate about 0.5 std dev above norm?), while Ss do... So Ns gain a smaller (25-33%) division and a narrow definition (scoring above 66-75% of the population on this axis)... and likewise, Ss gain no practical division (66-75% of the population) and no practical definition (constituting only the removal of part of the population that would be at the outer edges of this trait - have all normals and stronger traits in a large population sample).
    See, I was thinking about that recently, the statistics. Though I'm horrible at statistics--seriously.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  4. #184
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    eNFJ
    Enneagram
    4w3 sx/so
    Socionics
    eNFJ Ni
    Posts
    11,443

    Default

    Look - if I were to pick a type that's done the most damage to me (and my sister) over the years, it's ISTJs, hands-down. HOWEVER, I don't blame all ISTJs for this, I don't hate them, and I couldn't conscience blaming them as a group for what a few did. I don't understand broad sweeping disdain for a TYPE. Granted, there will always be one that you don't "get" or feel in sync with, but as to hating them ALL? That sounds exhausting. Plus, it rules out you ever enjoying the balanced individuals. For every ISTJ that's tried to mash me flat, there's been one to right the wrong and really prove how great human beings can be. That's not me being PC. It's just the facts.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  5. #185
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    No, it's not. This is an artifact of IQ distribution inside N - essentially distilling IQ to magnify the effect. It is literally the IQ component in N that is giving you that impression - remove IQ, and it's non-predictive (or generally close to in systems that use distributions.)
    Yes it is, I've looked at this across many companies, sorry if the results upset you. It's not absolute, but it's more predictive than any other factor and has nothing to do with IQ, because if you can observe skills and type, you don't need tests, you don't even need the 4 letters, you can figure it out based on choices people make, especially when they have to set daily priorities. What MBTI describes as ESTPs gravitate to sales engineering, STJs typically look at internal issues first, like which parts of the organization will be involved with project, while NTPs look at external issues first, like which companies will be competing for the same customers.

    So let's say I want someone externally focused in product marketing, and pay no attention to the 4 letters, chances will be very good that person is more likely to show up an N than an S if you test them.

  6. #186
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It's when it turns into giving the test and deciding based on it that you would be in a breach of ethics.
    But not as unethical as telling privately-owned companies what types of skills they have to hire for. You put out a job req. for someone with great organizational skills, you're essentially saying "give me a J". You put out another that says someone who's focused on high level strategy, but not day-to-day ops, you're essentially saying "give me an N". There's nothing to test, you can figure these things out quickly in an interview to determine if the person will be a fit.

    I can see you like a lot of academic language, but in the practical world of business, most hiring managers know what kind of person they want for a job, and in many cases, the skills they list fit in very closely with traditional MBTI definitions.

  7. #187
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    See, I was thinking about that recently, the statistics. Though I'm horrible at statistics--seriously.
    The problem with looking at general population ratios is that in business, especially outside of sales, HR, and PR, T's are 80-90% of the workforce. Seen some successful F execs now and again, but compared to the general population, the Fs are underrepresented. Next issue in marketing particular is that I's are underrepresented, so you're down to a handful of types.

    So what happens is that you're already down to a self-selected subset of the general population, which makes overall representation ratios less meaningful when trying to fill a particular role. If you put out a req for Product Mktg, you'll get mostly ENTP, ENTJ, ENFJ, ESTJ, or ESTP. Give the job to a typical ESTP, and they'll start CHOOSING to do more customer demos than is being asked. Give it to an ENTP, and you'll get more competitive analysis than is being asked. An ESTJ will document and flow chart beautifully unprompted, while an ENTJ will outline his plan for world domination (kidding, lots of sensitive people here) But again, not all will do this according to type, but take away the letters and you get these common trends.

    So if you want to find a good fit, you want to find someone who is naturally going to do what you what done most. Think the role needs more structure, then find someone who'll naturally want to document procedures. Want more competitive analysis, then find someone whose done it before unprompted. Same with customer demos. So you can forget all the MBTI letters, the distribution in the general population, but the key factors for success. Most often, in product marketing that's some combo of competitive analysis, strategy, and self-taught technology understanding. Ask for those skills, and you're far more likely to see a lot of Ns. It's that simple.

  8. #188
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    4
    Posts
    4,010

    Default

    I have had many of these experiences..I will use a reference in my point, and someone will interupt and take it literally, and elaborate on that exact reference to the point where the conversation is dead..it really bothers me sometimes, when I'm trying to say something important, or there is a serious situation, they will usually but in and elaborate on any single word I say..
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  9. #189
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    So let's say I want someone externally focused in product marketing, and pay no attention to the 4 letters, chances will be very good that person is more likely to show up an N than an S if you test them.
    Not surprisingly, if you don't want/hire those that don't fit your stereotype, the remainder will fit the stereotype... I see this as imply begging the test. It says nothing about predictive ability or effectiveness.

    Anyway, the point was that using the test was what was negative - I don't particularly care how much stereotyping you personally do, so long as you hire on ability and there turns out to be a correlation. What I say above is what I see the problem to be - I suspect your success comes from implementing change, and I don't belabor that at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel View Post
    But not as unethical as telling privately-owned companies what types of skills they have to hire for.
    Isn't that what you do?

    You put out a job req. for someone with great organizational skills, you're essentially saying "give me a J". You put out another that says someone who's focused on high level strategy, but not day-to-day ops, you're essentially saying "give me an N". There's nothing to test, you can figure these things out quickly in an interview to determine if the person will be a fit.
    No, there is a large ethical difference between judging someone in an interview as a viable fit and stereotyping them based on preconceptions.

    I can see you like a lot of academic language, but in the practical world of business, most hiring managers know what kind of person they want for a job, and in many cases, the skills they list fit in very closely with traditional MBTI definitions.
    I'm not an academic. I've gone through MBTI being used formally at work, along with participation in the review board to see if it should be rolled out to people... This is virtually a repeat of why it wasn't used. MBTI, used as a crutch to stereotype, is dangerous.

  10. #190
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    type
    Posts
    9,100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Look - if I were to pick a type that's done the most damage to me (and my sister) over the years, it's ISTJs, hands-down. HOWEVER, I don't blame all ISTJs for this, I don't hate them, and I couldn't conscience blaming them as a group for what a few did. I don't understand broad sweeping disdain for a TYPE. Granted, there will always be one that you don't "get" or feel in sync with, but as to hating them ALL? That sounds exhausting. Plus, it rules out you ever enjoying the balanced individuals. For every ISTJ that's tried to mash me flat, there's been one to right the wrong and really prove how great human beings can be. That's not me being PC. It's just the facts.
    While reading this post, I think I discovered the theoretical foundation of why some Ns have more trouble getting along with SJs than whomever else. Oh, and forgive me, because I'm less PC than PP, even.

    SJs, according to my function system, lead with T or F, which are, of course, judging functions, which means (for the novices' sakes) they make many and are very confident in their decisions, whether based on thinking or feeling.

    Secondary to that is the preference for S over N, as all SJs have Sensing as a support function, which means...Well what's important that it means in this context is that they are less perceptive than N Primaries (NPs) and other Ns.

    It leads to an axis of confidence in internal standards combined with a lack of understanding of why others have the position they do.

    Eureka, I did it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO