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  1. #51
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post

    No peer pressure? How do you know some of these women aren't cooing over the infant just because all the rest of them are? How many of them would be comfortable to the the only one who remained at her desk, working? The bell curve for fawning over babies might not exactly overlap the one for susceptibility to peer pressure.
    The applicability of the overlap- or non-overlap of the bell curves is noted, appreciated ("jolly good show!"), and admitted as logically valid.
    However on the basis of the number of years I have spent at this job, observing the fawning behaviour, (i.e., craning of necks across three rows of cubicles, women sprinting from the other half of the floor, dreamy sad wistfulness on the part of the *single* women as they return to their cubes...) it isn't primarily peer pressure.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  2. #52
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    The applicability of the overlap- or non-overlap of the bell curves is noted, appreciated ("jolly good show!"), and admitted as logically valid.
    However on the basis of the number of years I have spent at this job, observing the fawning behaviour, (i.e., craning of necks across three rows of cubicles, women sprinting from the other half of the floor, dreamy sad wistfulness on the part of the *single* women as they return to their cubes...) it isn't primarily peer pressure.
    Sadly I suspect you are right. My point was simply that all the women exhibiting this behavior may not be doing so out of a genuine interest in babies, any more than any observable social behavior can be be ascribed unfailingly to a genuine desire to be doing it.

    Equally sadly, at my workplace parents who bring a baby in don't wait for others to flock to it; they bring it around to everyone's office. It is hard to remain polite in such circumstances.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #53
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Sadly I suspect you are right. My point was simply that all the women exhibiting this behavior may not be doing so out of a genuine interest in babies, any more than any observable social behavior can be be ascribed unfailingly to a genuine desire to be doing it.

    Equally sadly, at my workplace parents who bring a baby in don't wait for others to flock to it; they bring it around to everyone's office. It is hard to remain polite in such circumstances.
    That's the office equivalent of the neighborhood cliche "Would you like to watch [sixteen hours' straight worth of] our vacation pictures?"
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  4. #54
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    My response would lead to a thread hijack and flamewar. I think it relates to other things. PM me for anecdotal instances, it being a "center of the bell curve" and "social norming" phenomenon.
    I call it "one size fits all", as far as Fe social systems go. But it's quite a force-fit for so many.

    Part of the expectation of nurturing is due to the biological process of gestation and lactation *causing* oohing and aahing over babies; and for many, the remembrance or anticipation of such, together with the tendency of women to seek "commonality" with one another (see below). Hence the appellation of "unnatural." (Or as the crowd would say, "Just conform already, d@mmit!")
    The difference is, I'm not criticizing their desire to breed or display mothering instincts. If that's where they choose to explore their human potential - then hey, pursue it. <--- I swear I'm being cheeky there.

    I would argue that having such a demeanor is NOT an indicator of actual capability to be a good mother. That's where I take issue with the "unnatural" tag or with assumption that capability to care for others is not there if one is not gushy on the outside. I don't think an SFJ is naturally a better mother than, say, a NTP woman, as far as raising healthy, functioning adults.

    I don’t see why men are not required to form their entire personality around ideas of what makes a good father, that their social identity is not tied to that one area of life, and that if they do not demonstrate this, how they are not shamed for it. This is pretty much what is being asked of women - for their whole identity to revolve around "motherhood". Nowadays, it's far less expected as a literal role, but the general expectation for a "female" personality is still heavily tied to this.

    You may be conflating "emotion" with "physical activity" -- I've talked to others with experience with children in this age group, as well as reading the work of social psychologists and the like; and they have noted several differences between the sexes (again, center of the bell curve and all that). Young boys tend to do better in environments where a lot of physical activity is interspersed with enforced inactivity, whereas girls do better at "sitting still"; boys, even at young ages, socialize with one another by assigning a static hierarchy, whereas women reach out even in minor social encounters, to *identify with* and establish commonality with one another; boys are much better at learning through doing, or hands-on learning.
    Well, what do you think about these examples?
    - Boys writing hate notes to each other, calling each other "fat" and "faggots"
    - Boys writing in their journals about how much they hate another boy (the words "fat" and "fag" pop up a lot)
    - Boys being "frienemies", insisting on sitting next to each other, playing together, but relentlessly verbally attacking each other. Now, if this did NOT upset them, fine; but they cry over it, they tattle, and they write hate notes/journal entries.
    - Tattling constantly, often because someone hurt their feelings (and far more than girls tattle)
    - Crying because some other kid didn't sit by them on the carpet, or whatever
    - Crying over all kinds of things (far more than girls cry)

    I have not experienced even a fraction of this nor to the same degree with girls. I was shocked, because I did not expect it. It flew in the face of so-called common sense about girls and boys. But by the time they hit high school, the male emotional energy is channeled into much more aggressive forms (which is more socially acceptable for them than the vulnerable forms) and the female emotional energy is channeled into social manipulations (because transparent expression that is about their own needs/desires/preferences doesn't fit the social model for girls).

    You are probably right that this is about ”hierarchies” for boys, but I cannot see how power struggles are not emotional.

    The point about physical activity - sure.
    But this supports what I was saying. When a boy's need is not fulfilled (in this case, a preference for physical activity is a FEELING, as it is a personal value & one that is not even rationally determined at that age), then he feels free to be disruptive about it. In other words, he can assert his needs in a way that is demanding. He is not expected to put aside his feelings, contain them, and be "appropriate". Of course, the boys have to follow classroom standards also, but it's more expected of them to be disruptive, and kids tend to live up to expectations.

    From a young age, girls are harped on much more for being active. I saw double standards with my male cousins growing up. If they were rambunctious - then they were just "being boys". If I was rambunctious, then I was scolded. By the time they hit school these "norms" are already set for them. They also pick up on expectations, even if not directly or consciously, and they will align with them.

    Conversely, boys get shamed when they are not very physical and don’t aggressively assert their emotions. My INTJ cousin was a very cerebral, contained child who was scared of sports, and his parents put him in karate as they thought it would suit his temperament better. The poor kid was still viewed as strange by people, because he’d rather sit quietly and play with his rock-collecting, geology for kids kit than run around causing a fuss.

    The girls seeking consensus thing was a problem for me though…I never have understood the offense others take in you having your own preferences and not cloning yourself off of them. What’s even worse is when the pretend like the thing they have in common is weird and they just found another weirdo, when it’s usually the most banal thing imaginable. I realize it’s natural for SFJs to do this, but they don’t comprise all of womankind, even if they do have a monopoly on the stereotypes.

    Still though, this again backs up what I am saying - women are taught, nay shamed, into this consensus, which is essentially accommodating the preferences of others rather than asserting true feelings. At the very least, you stay quiet, because that Fe social shaming you noted before is very real.

    Hence the "space cadet / head in the clouds / dreamer" sobriquet for NFPs. Oh, what the hey, I'll yank your chain an go ahead and say it. "Fluffy bunny."
    I wish people thought I was that soft and cutesy - less social PTSD. And are dreamers really “fluffy”?

    “having little or no intellectual weight; superficial or frivolous”

    I know INFPs too well to believe it, however; there is mithril underneath.
    I must have an exoskeleton or some porcupine-like coat on the outside….I’m softer on the inside.

    As for "triggering your social PTSD" ...? Holy crap. Do you mean I stepped on a values land-mine and didn't get set upon in rabid-cat mode?!!!! ("Prepare to disengage, Mr. Sulu, and reverse course at warp factor six.")
    Hyperbole....me, not you. Or, er...both :P

    This isn't mere *gold* ; it's what happened when King Midas used the Charmin (think it over...). (Or, if you prefer, it's co-mingled sapphire-and-diamond dust.)

    There is an analogy here which recalls to mind a passage from G.K. Chesterton's The Secret of Father Brown; and makes me realize with a start that old G.K.C. may have been an INFP...!
    Thank you
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  5. #55
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Careful...you just offended every INFP within a three-mile radius. (And annoyed the INFJs out to nearly six.)
    Not sure how an NF would find that offensive. I took it to mean most people think they are logical and use their own reasoning and beliefs as the gauge. So when they overlook the supposed irrationality of others, it's because they deem the person a friend and are not seeking to be offended or to offend over anything petty (and giving benefit of the doubt is a nice way of saying, "maybe they Do agree with me and this is just a misunderstanding!"). However, when they are offended, they paint the other person as "irrational" as a defense of their hurt feeling, to justify it.

    In which case, NTs within arm's reach of a laptop should be offended.

    People do this with morality also....they feel they are moral, and others are either tolerated if not too different or threatening, but otherwise they are condemned.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
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  6. #56
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    (Deleted for brevity.)
    No reply for the moment (sound of intellectual 14-foot rattler sounding a warning...)

    You just *had* to go ahead and post that when I have to go to bed because I have a four-day online training class for work starting tomorrow, and need my sleep
    so I don't get keyboard face.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  7. #57
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don’t see why men are not required to form their entire personality around ideas of what makes a good father, that their social identity is not tied to that one area of life, and that if they do not demonstrate this, how they are not shamed for it. This is pretty much what is being asked of women - for their whole identity to revolve around "motherhood". Nowadays, it's far less expected as a literal role, but the general expectation for a "female" personality is still heavily tied to this.
    I have observed the same double standard. We see this when people speak of being a stay-at-home or "full-time" mom as a career option. Does this make women who have jobs "part-time moms"? Most dads have jobs, yet no one characterizes them as "part-time dads".

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The girls seeking consensus thing was a problem for me though…I never have understood the offense others take in you having your own preferences and not cloning yourself off of them. What’s even worse is when the pretend like the thing they have in common is weird and they just found another weirdo, when it’s usually the most banal thing imaginable. I realize it’s natural for SFJs to do this, but they don’t comprise all of womankind, even if they do have a monopoly on the stereotypes.

    Still though, this again backs up what I am saying - women are taught, nay shamed, into this consensus, which is essentially accommodating the preferences of others rather than asserting true feelings. At the very least, you stay quiet, because that Fe social shaming you noted before is very real.
    I was much more like your INTJ cousin, so could often fall under the radar with many of these gender-based expectations. I did see plenty of the consensus-seeking among girls in school, though. I couldn't imagine how they could tolerate so much conformity, and conformity to dumb and shallow standards. I realized quickly that even if I did try to conform, what I would gain wasn't worth having. It was easy after that just to ignore them and go my own way, and it didn't take long for my approach to be validated.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Not sure how an NF would find that offensive. I took it to mean most people think they are logical and use their own reasoning and beliefs as the gauge. So when they overlook the supposed irrationality of others, it's because they deem the person a friend and are not seeking to be offended or to offend over anything petty (and giving benefit of the doubt is a nice way of saying, "maybe they Do agree with me and this is just a misunderstanding!"). However, when they are offended, they paint the other person as "irrational" as a defense of their hurt feeling, to justify it.

    In which case, NTs within arm's reach of a laptop should be offended.
    Why? I don't disagree that many people do have such a double standard where rationality is concerned.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #58
    Senior Member Rambling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Not sure how an NF would find that offensive. I took it to mean most people think they are logical and use their own reasoning and beliefs as the gauge. So when they overlook the supposed irrationality of others, it's because they deem the person a friend and are not seeking to be offended or to offend over anything petty (and giving benefit of the doubt is a nice way of saying, "maybe they Do agree with me and this is just a misunderstanding!"). However, when they are offended, they paint the other person as "irrational" as a defense of their hurt feeling, to justify it.

    In which case, NTs within arm's reach of a laptop should be offended.

    People do this with morality also....they feel they are moral, and others are either tolerated if not too different or threatening, but otherwise they are condemned.
    Thank you for understanding my point. I didn't know how to explain it better, but I meant something about realising that everyone is biased including oneself.

    If someone thinks that they are always right, that can simply become an unhealthy Fi value which drives every kind of logic before it.

  9. #59
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rambling View Post
    Thank you for understanding my point. I didn't know how to explain it better, but I meant something about realising that everyone is biased including oneself.

    If someone thinks that they are always right, that can simply become an unhealthy Fi value which drives every kind of logic before it.
    Hey! I resemble that remark!

    (...if truth be known, I was probably the original casting for the its molding.)

    setting-himself-on-fire.gif
    Click the pic.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  10. #60
    Senior Member Rambling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Hey! I resemble that remark!

    (...if truth be known, I was probably the original casting for the its molding.)

    setting-himself-on-fire.gif
    Click the pic.
    No... I didn't learn *everything* I know from you!

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