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  1. #41
    Senior Member Rambling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Would I get in trouble asking where the corresponding post is, addressed to *irrational* women? :
    Does this remark demonstrate that you yourself are irrational?

  2. #42
    Senior Member Rambling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Why? Do you have a constructive approach to handling irrational women? If you do, I would be eager to read it.
    Generally such irrationals both female and male seem to me to respond well to genuine warmth, honesty and enthusiasm...ymmv

  3. #43
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ROFLMAO!!

    "Run away, run away!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rambling View Post
    Does this remark demonstrate that you yourself are irrational?
    Only if I went ahead and *created* such a post...
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  4. #44
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rambling View Post
    Generally such irrationals both female and male seem to me to respond well to genuine warmth, honesty and enthusiasm...ymmv
    Not if I honestly and enthusiastically tell them they are being irrational.

    I wouldn't lie about something like that - or about anything else, as a rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Part of the expectation of nurturing is due to the biological process of gestation and lactation *causing* oohing and aahing over babies; and for many, the remembrance or anticipation of such, together with the tendency of women to seek "commonality" with one another (see below). Hence the appellation of "unnatural." (Or as the crowd would say, "Just conform already, d@mmit!")
    I wonder how many women would behave this way were the expectation not so strong that they do so. Bell curve, indeed. Gender is usually toward the bottom of the list of factors that lead me to feel commonality with someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    (But don't think everything is well over in the INTJ armoured regiment, either. The legendary death stare wins one no friends, even when one is trying to be nice.
    As another INTJ said once on another thread, they have discovered that it is impossible for an INTJ to be *too* warm and touchy-feely, no matter how hard they try...)
    By whose standards? I have wondered about this myself, in much the same way as the writer of that observation. I'm also beginning to wonder whether the famous death stare is really just a myth. At least, I've never noticed it in others or (from what I can tell) myself. If all of this is true, however, it still should just make an effective filter, no?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #45
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Not if I honestly and enthusiastically tell them they are being irrational.

    I wouldn't lie about something like that - or about anything else, as a rule.
    INTJs are known not merely for honesty, but for *blunt* honesty -- not couching the delivery in face-saving terms, for instance; nor steering the conversation to the general subject of whatever it is the INTJ wants to be honest about, giving some degree of foreshadowing or emotional warning to the recipient of our honesty.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I wonder how many women would behave this way were the expectation not so strong that they do so. Bell curve, indeed. Gender is usually toward the bottom of the list of factors that lead me to feel commonality with someone.
    Two points. No, make it three.
    1) Imma not taking the bait on this one. You are not near the center of the bell curve.
    2) Women are somewhat "consensus-oriented" and it feeds back on itself to the individual woman: kind of a psycho-social Hartree-Fock self-consistent field.
    (And, just to yank your chain, the role of the nucleus is played by an alpha male using the Red Pill. )
    3) I work in an office of mostly women: whenever a friend, relative, or co-worker brings in an infant, I can always tell by the knot of co-workers in the immediate vicinity of the child...
    I see no peer pressure, just rapt attention towards a common object.



    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    By whose standards? I have wondered about this myself, in much the same way as the writer of that observation. I'm also beginning to wonder whether the famous death stare is really just a myth. At least, I've never noticed it in others or (from what I can tell) myself. If all of this is true, however, it still should just make an effective filter, no?
    By the standards of "the great unwashed" (the mass of ESxx MBTI-types in society. I've tried to "lay it on thick" before and only after awhile was it noted: ("What happened, @grey_beard, you just cheered up or something.") I have never been told (even when exerting my hardest) that my compliments were saccharine, cloying, or over-done.
    As far as the filter -- it has the side effect ("opportunity cost") of filtering out a myriad of incipient *positive* soclai reactions.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  6. #46
    Senior Member Rambling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Not if I honestly and enthusiastically tell them they are being irrational.

    I wouldn't lie about something like that - or about anything else, as a rule.


    I wonder how many women would behave this way were the expectation not so strong that they do so. Bell curve, indeed. Gender is usually toward the bottom of the list of factors that lead me to feel commonality with someone.


    By whose standards? I have wondered about this myself, in much the same way as the writer of that observation. I'm also beginning to wonder whether the famous death stare is really just a myth. At least, I've never noticed it in others or (from what I can tell) myself. If all of this is true, however, it still should just make an effective filter, no?
    I thought you said you were an excellent communicator in real life? If I point out someone's illogicality with good humour they generally admit it and laugh...

    But the verb of irrationality declines like this:

    I am right; or I am rational
    You are my friend; I give you the benefit of the doubt when we differ
    He / she differed enough from me to cause me hurt; he / she was wrong; he / she is irrational



    I generally know the expected value of the bell curve, I find it a useful method to distinguish myself from others or to accord with them, depending on mood. In my view anyone with a newborn needs any encouragement they can get. :-)

  7. #47
    Senior Member Rambling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    I am a female INTJ. It's been my personal experience that almost every man I've ever known has been more emotional than me. Or maybe I should say, they've all been more demonstrative in their emotions. It's not that I don't have emotions; they just don't show on the surface. I try not to make decisions based on emotion, and when trying to help others, I always appeal to their logical faculties and their common sense. (If they have any.)

    It baffles and frustrates me, because society on a whole tends to believe the stereotype that men are rational creatures, and women are emotional. But to me, it's always seemed the opposite. Do any other rational females have this problem? How do you cope in a world that expects women to be emotional?
    After much reflection I have come to the conclusion that this is a straw man...most people choose to show their vulnerable and emotional side to people they trust. So after an introductory period of time, everyone I know seems to have emotions, both male and female. I'm not sure that gender comes into it so much as personality type and current life experiences. Eg the ENFP guy I know on the receiving end of a bitter divorce is more emotional than the stable single ISTP lady in her seventies...is that gender, personality type or life experiences? I incline to the view that it's more personality type and life experiences.

    As for whether they are more emotional than I am...I probably have a much smaller circle of depth than extroverts do, but I know I can get emotional with people I trust, especially during difficult life experiences of my own.

    As for rating whether I am more or less emotional than someone else, I think I'd detail it by each emotion ratehr than overall...eg I am less bitter than she is but I can see that she is more easygoing during a crisis than I am...

  8. #48
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Ive found this as well in my life. And I used to sort of think in these parameters and terms as well. I wasn't very emotional, I didn't cry much, and I was with... erm.. i dunno.. wussier guys. I guess.

    But I also found a few things influenced that heavily.

    The first being: people are attracted to those that can teach them things. Opposites attract. Rarely do people meet and do well on the exact same emotional levels. There needs to be a balance.. and if you're a very balanced person (and I suspect if you're constantly frustrated with emotional displays you're not.. don't worry, like, 90% of the world isn't..) then maybe another very balanced person is cool, but for most people.. you'll either meet someone who is more emotional than you, or less emotional than you. and that leads to the second thing...

    Which is the delusion that it's better to be one more than the other. Words can highly invalidating to emotions.. because the reality is not so many things require logic in our day to day lives as we might expect. And emotions need to be balanced with logic, and emphasizing one more than the other hurts both. And sometimes, that logic plays right into emotions. There's such thing as being emotionally logical. There is such a thing as to find someone with even LESS emotions than you.. and when you do, you'll also potentially find someone with even less tolerance of emotions than you as well. It's not easy on either side of the coin. An emotional person constantly has to deal with the invalidation of something that is actually a very normal part of the human process. Someone less emotional is never going to 100% fulfill the emotional needs of someone more emotional than them... and they have to deal with that. And they have to be expected to deal with the times you are emotional because, hey, that's their game. And they have to somehow promote their less-emotional-more-mechanical side in order to not be burden on you. Couple that with the idea that men typically place ALL of their emotional well-being into a single person (i.e. usually their wives and girlfriends), and what you get is frustrating, illogical, and overwhelming. Just as overwhelming as emotional outbursts and illogical things can be for someone who has to deal with those. Frequently non-emotional people try to 'fix' things, or immediately jump to pointing out the issues... There's very little *support* for the issue, and empathy being shown and presented (even though you might feel it, no one can read your mind) and just because you appreciate a particular way of communicating doesn't mean it's superior, or what the other person needs.

    When it's seen as an all or nothing instead of a fluid process ebbing back and forth, you start resenting and looking for examples to prove yourself right.. versus realizing there's an imbalance and nurturing that balance back to health.

    I find a LOT more success in validation, and support, and listening to the issue and discussing it in terms of just simply supporting them... and when they're calm again, and you've shown you clearly side with them as a person and as a lover (which is different than disagreeing with their position or actions), then you can discuss things and maybe show them what could have been changed, or done better, or a more positive/neutral way to think about it. The WAY you talk can move mountains, or tear down bridges.

    Right now I'm in a situation where I'm dating someone less emotional than me. It doesn't happen often. Or.. well... ever really for me. This is a first. So now I'm seeing it from the opposite side of the coin. I used to complain about the very stuff *i'm now guilty of doing* .. and I didn't change. Not really. Who is more emotional than the other did. And now I'm having to validate myself. And say.. "Okay, kyu, you know he cares about you.. he'd never say you're stupid.. Why are you thinking he's calling you stupid.." and logically work out the issues that stemmed from... really just his inability to be sensitive to a situation sometimes and show support and understanding FIRST before going right for the throat of the problem.. which usually isn't even him.

    All those eggshells you walk on? Emotional people are stepping on cold iron nails. And nails hurt the feet more than eggshells tend to.. Having been on both sides of the coin now, I can say I was definitely living a cushier life being the less emotional one.
    Yes.
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  9. #49
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    INTJs are known not merely for honesty, but for *blunt* honesty -- not couching the delivery in face-saving terms, for instance; nor steering the conversation to the general subject of whatever it is the INTJ wants to be honest about, giving some degree of foreshadowing or emotional warning to the recipient of our honesty.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    3) I work in an office of mostly women: whenever a friend, relative, or co-worker brings in an infant, I can always tell by the knot of co-workers in the immediate vicinity of the child...
    I see no peer pressure, just rapt attention towards a common object.
    No peer pressure? How do you know some of these women aren't cooing over the infant just because all the rest of them are? How many of them would be comfortable to the the only one who remained at her desk, working? The bell curve for fawning over babies might not exactly overlap the one for susceptibility to peer pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambling View Post
    I thought you said you were an excellent communicator in real life? If I point out someone's illogicality with good humour they generally admit it and laugh...

    But the verb of irrationality declines like this:

    I am right; or I am rational
    You are my friend; I give you the benefit of the doubt when we differ
    He / she differed enough from me to cause me hurt; he / she was wrong; he / she is irrational.
    I claim to excel only at professional communication. Plus one person's good humor can be another's ridicule. In any case, my personal feelings are not the yardstick I use to assess the rationality of other people (or of myself).
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #50
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rambling View Post

    But the verb of irrationality declines like this:

    I am right; or I am rational
    You are my friend; I give you the benefit of the doubt when we differ
    He / she differed enough from me to cause me hurt; he / she was wrong; he / she is irrational
    Careful...you just offended every INFP within a three-mile radius. (And annoyed the INFJs out to nearly six.)
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

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