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  1. #21
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    The only thing I've heard to work is the whole Red-Pill, Game, approach. And that only works if she develops tingles for the man in question.
    What man? I'm not a man, in any case. What do I do when I have to deal with an irrational woman? They seem even less amenable than men to having that pointed out to them.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #22
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Excuse me for butting in....however, even as I am not an NT female, but an NF female, even I have had this experience. I DO express emotion to those very, very close, or anonymously online, or in mediocre art, but since childhood I have been accused of being cold, and I tend toward temperamental/passionate expressions, not softly sentimental ones nor nurturing warmth. More often though, I may appear unaffected and aloof, even if I do not feel that way internally. Coping with this is just to assert that I do care, but in my own way, and that people need to accept it as valid. I still struggle with negative judgment from others over this, and I admit I will summon some expression of emotion that doesn't feel natural and really is not there (although a "feeling-value" may be), just to appease expectations.

    In my most serious past relationships, my exes remarked that I am less emotional than they are. These have been F type men, but it goes to show that being a man doesn't mean you are less emotional than a woman by default. I hesitate to pit emotionality against rationality though - I think someone can experience and express strong emotion and not necessarily be ruled by it. IMO, you can make rational decisions without being an unemotional person, and you can have weak emotional response and not be very good at rational thinking. Sometimes that is more of an intelligence issue than being passionate or stoic.

    Plus the requisite: INTJs are actually irrational types in Jung's theory. Okay, okay, I know that's not the same meaning as the layman's usage. :P
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #23
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I talked to my boyfriend to get input on this subject. It was a cool conversation.

    He said he feels two things combat the suffering in life. (He doesn't like the terminology of 'combat' in this sentence, that's my wording not his. I'm paraphrasing his very intelligent response into a small paragraph.) Spirit and sensitivity. And spirit is where the emotions tend to stem from.. passion, happiness, anger, sadness. Being involved in the things around you, versus being apathetic. Spirit is the major player--and why emotions are important in humans. And sensitivity, somewhere along the way, we sort of turned into a synonym of the word weakness. And it's a grave mistake. Sensitivity is being finely in tune. Acutely aware. Sensitivity modifies spirit, and requires discipline. And people who are emotionally charged, and angry, or sad, and are lashing out.. they lack the sensitivity to know they've strayed from the direction they want to go. They have the spirit, but no direction to funnel it into.

    The idea is, both are important. You don't want apathy and direction since you'll go no where, and you don't want passion without direction because you'll go no where. I think to me, in that context, adding sensitivity to that equation (the emotionally charged person equation) can help tremendously. And to be sensitive, you have to be hyper aware of all the elements in the situation--the stem of the emotion, the body language, everything. So you can make a logical, appropriate reaction to the situation. Sensitivity and logic, in that context, can walk hand in hand.
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  4. #24
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What man? I'm not a man, in any case. What do I do when I have to deal with an irrational woman? They seem even less amenable than men to having that pointed out to them.
    I was semi-trolling, semi-teasing: in particular as you are (as you are justly confident in and of and about), a rational woman.

    I agree with you that irrational women *are* less amenable than men to having that pointed out to them: so much so, in fact, that only another *woman* is allowed even to _attempt_ to point it out to them. Men must make do with distracting them.

    Two more serious responses, though, since I respect you, and your mind, and your good faith. (And a tip o' the hat for not flaming / officially censuring me over my jest. (grey_bears rubs Hershey bar on nose...) )

    1) Though I note that you have once noted you don't get along with Biblical literalists/fundamentalists (and from that I infer your present attitude at least leans atheistic, as far as I can tell), nonetheless, I will quote the Bible at you:

    4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Or you will also be like him. 5 Answer a fool as his folly deserves, That he not be wise in his own eyes. (Proverbs 26:4-6)

    ("Look! The Bible has a contradiction!") No; it's the rhetorical device known as paradox; more or less pointing out, that there *is* no good way to deal with someone irrational.

    But, as with so many things in life, there are caveats.
    One of them, is the tingles method I mentioned above, reserved for men: note also that it redirects a man away from using his stereotypically superior rational mind.
    The other, appropriate more to "conventional" women, as it were, is in recognition of Proverbs. DON'T answer someone irrational...*directly*. Instead, use the female stereotypically superior *social networking* skills: make alliances with all the *other* women in the vicinity, and together, force the irrational woman to change her mind, or her ways, through *peer pressure*.

    (Good luck, btw. I've had to deal with some irrational women in my time and often wished for nothing more than the existence of warp drive or teleportation capabilities: for myself or for her, after awhile I didn't care which...)

    Respectful handshake tendered in lieu of to a fellow armoured unit.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  5. #25
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    You're very polite and articulate, @OrangeAppled. I like that.

    Also, perhaps I shouldn't have said that I'm not emotional. I actually feel things very deeply. But that's the thing; they're down deep, not obvious to most people. And my actions aren't ruled by them. When making a decision, I always try to rely on common sense, because emotions can often lead us astray. But so many of the men I've known seem to wear their emotions right on the surface, and allow them to pull them every which way. I just wonder where the idea of men being the more stoic, impassive of the two genders even came from. To me, it seems like just as much of a stereotype as "All Irish people are drunkards" or "All Arabs are terrorists". (I do not agree with either of those, by the way.)
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  6. #26
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    @OrangeAppled -- how on *earth* could you consider yourself to be butting in? Please set your E4 in abeyance for the moment, as your input is timely, relevant, and welcome.

    You and @Coriolis *both* bring up the distinctions between feeling and expressing emotion; between feeling rational and *acting* rational; between appropriate motives and (socially) appropriate (read, 'expected') behaviour.

    The issue here isn't solidly one of the sex of the irrational person: it is how that irrationality is *expressed*, and the typical social response of others *to* that expression. And here, it isn't just a matter of stereotyping of the individual: for the indulgences granted, as well as the social strictures imposed, are different for each sex, *and* related to the "class" or "arena" of social behaviour considered (public vs. private, relationship vs. job role), in addition to the sex of the main players involved at the moment.

    Also, @OrangeAppled, this line is gold:

    IMO, you can make rational decisions without being an unemotional person, and you can have weak emotional response and not be very good at rational thinking. Sometimes that is more of an intelligence issue than being passionate or stoic.


    Consider yourself *highly* commended -- nobody says an emotions/rationality are a zero-sum game: and nobody says a person has to have much of either one in the first place.

    And just to build on what you said -- sometimes, as I am sure you have discovered, one must set aside one's own preference or style in pursuit of a higher goal, which may be at cross purposes to one's own wants at the moment.

    The ability to know which one to use, and the ability to switch -- is the sign of maturity and completeness.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  7. #27
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    I was semi-trolling, semi-teasing: in particular as you are (as you are justly confident in and of and about), a rational woman.
    I knew that, but couldn't resist an opportunity to elicit potentially useful advice on a situation I encounter all too often. (OK - not that often, but how often is acceptable??)

    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Two more serious responses, though, since I respect you, and your mind, and your good faith. (And a tip o' the hat for not flaming / officially censuring me over my jest. (grey_bears rubs Hershey bar on nose...) )

    1) Though I note that you have once noted you don't get along with Biblical literalists/fundamentalists (and from that I infer your present attitude at least leans atheistic, as far as I can tell), nonetheless, I will quote the Bible at you:
    Flaming and censuring? Not at all. It is usually far more entertaining, and more instructive, to take such posts stone cold seriously. And BTW, I'm not an atheist, but that is another discussion entirely. You are right that the many contradictions in the Bible do not recommend it to me as a customary source of guidance.

    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    One of them, is the tingles method I mentioned above, reserved for men: note also that it redirects a man away from using his stereotypically superior rational mind.
    The other, appropriate more to "conventional" women, as it were, is in recognition of Proverbs. DON'T answer someone irrational...*directly*. Instead, use the female stereotypically superior *social networking* skills: make alliances with all the *other* women in the vicinity, and together, force the irrational woman to change her mind, or her ways, through *peer pressure*.
    What is this "tingles" method, and why is it suitable only for men, presumably when dealing with women? (Can women use it when dealing with irrational men?) As for the female social networking route -- forget it. I don't know if I would be able to pull that off if I tried. The few times it has come to that, I have either made my case quite plainly, taken matters into my own hands, held my tongue entirely and let them shoot themselves in the foot, or simply left.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    I am a female INTJ. It's been my personal experience that almost every man I've ever known has been more emotional than me.
    I understand, believe me, I do. What makes more sense to me is you're inadvertently bringing out the worst in others. I say that respectfully. Consider reflecting on your own behavior.

    (I tend to interpret 'emotional' as unstable.)

    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    The only thing I've heard to work is the whole Red-Pill, Game, approach.
    What's a red pill for?

  9. #29
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I knew that, but couldn't resist an opportunity to elicit potentially useful advice on a situation I encounter all too often. (OK - not that often, but how often is acceptable??)


    Flaming and censuring? Not at all. It is usually far more entertaining, and more instructive, to take such posts stone cold seriously. And BTW, I'm not an atheist, but that is another discussion entirely. You are right that the many contradictions in the Bible do not recommend it to me as a customary source of guidance.


    What is this "tingles" method, and why is it suitable only for men, presumably when dealing with women? (Can women use it when dealing with irrational men?) As for the female social networking route -- forget it. I don't know if I would be able to pull that off if I tried. The few times it has come to that, I have either made my case quite plainly, taken matters into my own hands, held my tongue entirely and let them shoot themselves in the foot, or simply left.
    "tingles" == "sexual attraction/attractiveness": if a woman is being cussed for the sake of being contrary, being attractive (*and* masculine) will often -- but not always -- short-circuit her defenses. When women do it to men, it's called "feminine wiles" (being charitable ). When men do it to women, it's either called (SWOON! *thud*) or "that creep was just *using* her"...

    I've found that trying to reason with a woman in the throes of irrationality usually leads to the woman attempting to take you out personally with a flame thrower, as it appears that doing so gets taken as an affront to her very sense of self. For that reason, I usually opt for the transporter room...
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  10. #30
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    I understand, believe me, I do. What makes more sense to me is you're inadvertently bringing out the worst in others. I say that respectfully. Consider reflecting on your own behavior.

    (I tend to interpret 'emotional' as unstable.)


    What's a red pill for?
    You probably don't want to know: and it would likely be a thread hijack.

    Cliff's Notes to the Cliff's Notes:

    "red pill" is short hand for a body of knowledge of the realm/arena of interpersonal/intersexual dynamics, between individuals or in the broader culture; alternatively, "using masculinity and/or male attractiveness" on women. It can be used by pick-up artists for "exploitative, no-love-or-commitment-offered, but only *implied*" sex; more charitably, and more constructively, it can be used by a man to keep from being unfairly manipulated by women; best of all, it can be used to bolster a man's attractiveness in marriage.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

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