[ENTJ] Why do ENTJ's bully

[violet_crown]

Do INTJ really understand people better? Usually this sort of interpersonal insight is considered one of our weaknesses. Then again, perhaps you are just saying that ENTJ is even worse.

Actually, I think that INTJs understand people just fine when they care to. My observation on where you guys fall down is not the insight, but the ritual. Fi seems to work in you guys such that when you want to express something to someone else, you can be kind of insistent on the right to express not just what you feel, but conveying it in a way that feels right to you personally. Sometimes this need for it to "feel right" for the INTJ will trump the needs/feels/preferences of the other party. It's like "HEY, I'M FEELING THIS FEELING RIGHT NOW", and the other party just has to figure out what to do with it.

 

[Bardsandwarriors]

You can either defend the individuals rights above that of the populace or you have to back down a certain degree and that's where the ENTJ typically comes unstuck because they are more prone to value the system than the individual.

It's somewhat more nuanced than that. The ENFP trait, at least in me, is not to value the individuals more than the system - but to permit the individuals to operate in a self-directed, self-respecting way within society. Society needs systems, but if they are designed in a way that shuts down honest people, then it grates. Where chaos is good, is when the chaotic people are acting for the good. Where chaos is bad, is when dishonest and overly selfish people are permitted to abuse other people. So a system on which society operates needs to permit one, while curbing the other.

People are the start and the end of every system in society. (I may be going round in circles here, putting F before T). From my pov, the system is a tool of the people; rather than people being a tool of the system.

Those people that you put into the system, are also supposed to be the beneficiaries of it.

You also mention manufacturing. Well, that's a whole nother kettle of fish - production lines and robots

 

[violet_crown]

It's somewhat more nuanced than that. The ENFP trait, at least in me, is not to value the individuals more than the system - but to permit the individuals to operate in a self-directed, self-respecting way within society. Society needs systems, but if they are designed in a way that shuts down honest people, then it grates. Where chaos is good, is when the chaotic people are acting for the good. Where chaos is bad, is when dishonest and overly selfish people are permitted to abuse other people. So a system on which society operates needs to permit one, while curbing the other.

People are the start and the end of every system in society. (I may be going round in circles here, putting F before T). From my pov, the system is a tool of the people; rather than people being a tool of the system.

So your issue boils to down to ENTJs are not ENFPs. Got it.

 

[Bardsandwarriors]

You ain't got it. It's not about stereotypes - individuals OR system. It's about getting the mix right. If it's all system, ENTJs are jerks. If it's all individuals, it's almighty chaos.

 

[Vilku]

what? this thread is fiction. whats the name of the fairytale your discussing here, guys?

 

[violet_crown]

You ain't got it. It's not about stereotypes - individuals OR system. It's about getting the mix right. If it's all system, ENTJs are jerks. If it's all individuals, it's almighty chaos.

How about I handle my area of strength and competency, you handle yours and we both just have enough respect for each other to recognize that both are equally valuable even if the other's thing isn't really our thing. That way you don't have to proselytize to me, I don't have to be dismissive of you, and something might actually get done here. How does that sound?

 

[chubber]

uhm

INTJs don't understand people better, they want to understand them. And any Ne type is going to make that difficult for them.

 

[Bardsandwarriors]

How about I handle my area of strength and competency, you handle yours and we both just have enough respect for each other to recognize that both are equally valuable even if the other's thing isn't really our thing. That way you don't have to proselytize to me, I don't have to be dismissive of you, and something might actually get done here. How does that sound?

I have no idea what your "area of strength and competency" is. If it's being completely dismissive and demeaning to a relative newbie posting his own answer in good faith, you're doing very well.

"So your issue boils to down to ENTJs are not ENFPs. Got it."

Can we leave it there. I'll continue discussing it with Xander.

 

[violet_crown]

I have no idea what your "area of strength and competency" is. If it's being completely dismissive and demeaning to a relative newbie posting his own answer in good faith, you're doing very well.

"So your issue boils to down to ENTJs are not ENFPs. Got it."

Can we leave it there. I'll continue discussing it with Xander.

You're welcome to lurk until you're ready for your seat at the adults table.

 

[Bardsandwarriors]

What a nasty boy. I've reported your post for unprovoked belligerence.

 

[Totenkindly]

Let's both of you dial it back a bit, shall we? Thanks.

 

[Bardsandwarriors]

May I continue discussing this with Xander, without unsolicited insults from anyone else?

 

[Jaguar]

If it's all system, ENTJs are jerks. If it's all individuals, it's almighty chaos.

Out of curiosity, why is it you stated ENTJs are "jerks" if it's "all system," but there is no corresponding type that is also a "jerk" if it's "all individuals"?

 

[Bardsandwarriors]

Out of curiosity, why is it you stated ENTJs are "jerks" if it's "all system," but there is no corresponding type that is also a "jerk" if it's "all individuals"?

Jerk aka bully is a reference to the thread title and theme. I was not implying that all entj's are jerks, just as the thread opener is not implying that all entj's are bullies. I was paraphrasing, with explanation of when and why the appeaance of bullying seems to take place.

Chaos was a direct reply to Xander's "chaos" = what happens when systems are not in place.

 

[Xander]

It's somewhat more nuanced than that. The ENFP trait, at least in me, is not to value the individuals more than the system - but to permit the individuals to operate in a self-directed, self-respecting way within society. Society needs systems, but if they are designed in a way that shuts down honest people, then it grates. Where chaos is good, is when the chaotic people are acting for the good. Where chaos is bad, is when dishonest and overly selfish people are permitted to abuse other people. So a system on which society operates needs to permit one, while curbing the other.

People are the start and the end of every system in society. (I may be going round in circles here, putting F before T). From my pov, the system is a tool of the people; rather than people being a tool of the system.

Those people that you put into the system, are also supposed to be the beneficiaries of it.

You also mention manufacturing. Well, that's a whole nother kettle of fish - production lines and robots

classic ENFP to my ears.
"I'm not sure what rules I want to obey so I'm certain I don't want you deciding for me"

The problem is that people are mindless reactionary cavemen with a vicious nature and a cowardly streak a mile wide. An individual, however, is a reasonable thinking person capable of great compassion and honour. How do you put a system into place to ensure that both are catered for? The answer is probably that you lock an ENTJ and an ENFP in a room to figure it out and any idea they both agree on , you implement.
(of course you'd ask an INTP to check your work first for errors and logical inconsistencies)

Trust me, my father ENTJ finds my long term friend ENFP as much of a douche as vice versa. They both see the others point, respect it, the person saying it and their intelligence but neither could walk as the other. It just doesn't fit right.

Now take that experience and understanding away and you have the potential for conflict. At which point I would expect the ENTJ to emerge the victor due to their superior constructive and destructive ability as they sum their efforts (J) where as the ENFP is half at war with himself (P). In the aftermath both sides would see the other in a less than favourable light but it's the ENTJ who has used a style closest to what is commonly referred to as bullying and hence they'd get the label.

 

[Bardsandwarriors]

TBH, I was pitching my comments directly at Xander, having got some measure of his easy-going style of discussion. I was not expecting someone else to hotly misinterpret my comments and stamp all over me.

 

[Xander]

Out of curiosity, why is it you stated ENTJs are "jerks" if it's "all system," but there is no corresponding type that is also a "jerk" if it's "all individuals"?

Personally I'd say that if someone is all anything then they're a jerk to many people.

Balance... I'm all balance...

 

[Jaguar]

Personally I'd say that if someone is all anything then they're a jerk to many people. Balance... I'm all balance...

Exactly my opinion.

 

[Xander]

Exactly my opinion.

Jerk.

 

[Jaguar]

Jerk.

Edit: Actually, not according to the "definition" you posted for that word.