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[ENTJ] Why do ENTJ's bully

Jaguar

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Xander

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One mistake I might be making here is that most entj's on the net might actually just be narcissists misrepresenting real entj's....but who knows...I Can't tell from a message board interaction...all I know is that on other message boards, not here, I have come across entj's with explosive anger, who bully, and troll...and it is not just me who thinks so...

go on the reddit forum for entj's and you will see other entj's there talking about forums and entj's bullies too.

.
I would not trust any online community to have accurately typed members. Too many people with half a clue selling certainty.
 

Xander

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So is Carl Jung completely irrelevant to this discussion?
Perhaps if you tie how that statement contributes to the discussion at hand it may draw more comment. Not that I've read every post, many are very long. From that singular post though, it seems a little out of place and disconnected, hence my comment here.
 

Xander

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To what extent to you think all of this applies to INTJs as well - or more specifically, what distinctions do you see between the kind of testing we do and the ENTJ variety, and the way empathy, or lack thereof, influences our interactions. People use the word "intimidating" in connection with INTJs from time to time, but I don't see "bullying" much. What is the distinction?
INTJs, that I know, do not bully. An INTJ is more likely to segregate anyone who doesn't "work out" to their minds. An ENTJ is far more likely to try to gain compliance, sometimes with force.

In fact I think a good delineation between INTJ and ENTJ is in how much force they apply to obtain the result they set out for. An INTJ tends to analyse more to find the point at which little or no force is required where as an ENTJ will act sooner and use more force to achieve a similar result.
 

Tippo

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Alright, so while my initial impulse was clearly to troll and disregard this thread, I'm opting to take a slightly more constructive approach in the name of good faith.

Firstly, I want to make it clear that I'm neither apologizing nor defending ENTJs here, but I thought it might be interesting to share my experience and see if that sheds some light on this whole thing.

Speaking for myself, as well as other ENTJs I've known well, empathy is without question a learned skill for us. With Fi in the inferior position we are typically unaware of what we feel much less have an inkling as to the inner lives of those around us. This obviously creates problems that we become aware of quite early on. You learn very quickly that your own thresholds don't necessarily apply to others, and absent that as a starting point (and having a fairly strong inclination towards empiricism besides) the only way to understand how to deal with people is through experience.

I remember from a pretty early age that I would do what I thought of as "boundary testing". When I was dealing with someone, especially on a more personal basis, I would do little "test" to figure out what were and were not an acceptable range of interactions with that person. To an outside observer, this could be construed as "fucking with someone", and on a certain level they're not incorrect. I admit to having done what I recognize now to be some pretty fucked up things to other folks more or less in the name of Science. Over time, however, I learned that when I did such and such a thing it would cause someone to become upset, or such and such another thing and they would be happy. Because people even now are effectively black boxes to me, I still do some tests to understand what kind of person I'm dealing with, and gather a rough approximation of what their individual thresholds might be. It's thankfully a bit more subtle, but it's still part of the interaction.

Now, obviously, there's two related points that go along with this basic idea. The first of those is that while most ENTJs engage in some form of boundary testing or another, they're not necessarily going to take responsibility for when things go too far and someone ends up genuinely hurt. The party line of the average ENTJ is, "Your feelings are not my responsibility." The logic there being regardless of what I've done to you, you can control the response that you have to that interaction, or (more to the point) you can put your big boy pants on and shelve your shit like I do. There's a lot of immaturity in that attitude, obviously. But the alternative is actual introspection and really owning not only the fact that your present way of doing business is sub-optimal not only for the other party but in how you deal with your own shit.

ENTJs are not into the whole "being wrong" thing. We go to great lengths to have our shit together, and having to cop to a flaw...Well, let's just say that the whole notion of "falling on one's sword" was a house that baby Fi built.

The second idea that I want to emphasize is that there's a kind of innocence when some ENTJs overstep. We're not geared towards people. We're geared towards effective problems solving. There are times when in our zeal to execute on the Prime Directive we will toss the baby right out with the bathwater, and be like, "Yeah, fuck that baby." And sleep pretty awesomely that night afterwards. Again, this goes to the idea that if you accept the premise that empathy is the province of inferior Fi, then going towards the place where we can perceive people (including ourselves) as intrinsically valuable feels like death.

No, seriously.

The best I can describe it, going towards Fi feels like you don't know what's going to happen, but you will in fact die if you allow yourself to be that vulnerable. Some get over the bitchassness and manage to anyways, but some never do. For me, my first step towards embracing that vulnerability was the recognition that regardless of how capable I might be, if I wasn't able to work with others I would never get anything done. Naturally, the problem with seeking to cultivate genuine empathy is that you may in fact succeed. I made the mistake of going full retard, and now have an abundance of feels. It is gross. I don't like to talk about it. But it is what it is. I will never be as naturally attuned to those around me as an NFP, nor have the innate poise and social confidence of an NFJ, but damned if I haven't found a greater depth, fulfillment and richness in my relationships with others as a result of learning to be more open.

Either way, the point that I'm trying to make with sharing this with you is that ENTJs are coming from a much different place than most people. Our greatest strength ironically carries within it the seeds of our most self-destructive tendencies. We are not out to get you. Unfortunately, most of us don't really care too much about you one way or another. The best advice I can give to those who've had negative experiences with an ENTJ is to be direct and hold your ground when they're giving you a hard time. Ask them flat out what evidence they have for whatever bullshit aspersions they're casting your way. If they have grounds for what they're saying, then it gives them a chance to slow their roll, hear you out, and engage from a more reasonable place than one of YOU ARE RUINING EVERYTHING AND IF I DO NOT DESTROY YOU THEN TERRIBLE BUT HERETO UNKNOWN THINGS WILL OCCUR TO US ALL. And if they're just being dicks, then you basically calling on them for wasting everyone's time with bullshit will make them respect you. (ENTJs are basically all bratty, power bottoms, anyways. We like it when you knock us around a bit. It makes us feel secure and freer to let go and stuff. :3 Warning: Test this at your own hazard, tho...)

Anyways, that's all I got. Hopefully this is helpful to someone.

Great internal discoveries, I'm in this phase as well, it's more productive mostly.....
 

Tippo

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This is a good example. I think an ENTJ would bully in other situations too though. I remember reading that ENTJ's suffer, more than any other type, displacement. Because they are so in "control" of their emotions, or FI inferior, they tend to hold back, when being yelled at work, for example, and tend to take it out on their loved ones. This is also the key characteristic of a narcissist. As an ENTJ I did not know myself that I displaced but I Do. A lot of people do but an ENTJ h as a particular prolbem with it at work.

IT is because they see the logical weaknesses of emotion that they repress it...but emotion is needed for boundries. We need to whine sometimes in the places we think we should not and vice versa...without emotional devices we have no way to build emotional boundries. I've learned this but most entj's will never learn it and hence continue to scream and shout at their loved ones while they nestle the foot of their boss in hopes of that next salary jump - no joke eNTJ's make a lot of money.

This is why they are known to have explosive anger.

One mistake I might be making here is that most entj's on the net might actually just be narcissists misrepresenting real entj's....but who knows...I Can't tell from a message board interaction...all I know is that on other message boards, not here, I have come across entj's with explosive anger, who bully, and troll...and it is not just me who thinks so...

go on the reddit forum for entj's and you will see other entj's there talking about forums and entj's bullies too.

.

This is arrogant, however, being corrected or yelled at, rarely happened to me. The only instances I can draw from, the argument was coming from the uninformed or insecure less articulate. This never plagued me however I did get "let go" many times. Mostly without any discussion. I've always pioneered my own path, only in the later years, I learned to hide it. The last engineering position held, I was literally attacked, by a inferior vp, regarding my internet company and the success it was experiencing. 20 years back amazingly. I then went full time and made my salary after 2 months.
I've learned i work great towards my goals, others are of little interest. ;)
 
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EJCC

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So is Carl Jung completely irrelevant to this discussion?
That particular Carl Jung statement contradicted something that I've read elsewhere: that that sort of oversensitive behavior is something T-doms exhibit under stress. Not all the time.

INTJs, that I know, do not bully. An INTJ is more likely to segregate anyone who doesn't "work out" to their minds. An ENTJ is far more likely to try to gain compliance, sometimes with force.

In fact I think a good delineation between INTJ and ENTJ is in how much force they apply to obtain the result they set out for. An INTJ tends to analyse more to find the point at which little or no force is required where as an ENTJ will act sooner and use more force to achieve a similar result.
This is also a good way to distinguish ESTJs from ISTJs IME. ISTJs are more likely to just sigh and shake their heads at someone being stupid -- whereas ESTJs are more likely to feel compelled to correct the stupidity.
 

GarrotTheThief

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This is arrogant, however, being corrected or yelled at, rarely happened to me. The only instances I can draw from, the argument was coming from the uninformed or insecure less articulate. This never plagued me however I did get "let go" many times. Mostly without any discussion. I've always pioneered my own path, only in the later years, I learned to hide it. The last engineering position held, I was literally attacked, by a inferior vp, regarding my internet company and the success it was experiencing. 20 years back amazingly. I then went full time and made my salary after 2 months.
I've learned i work great towards my goals, others are of little interest. ;)

That is not arrogant at all but there are some positions where everyone will be yelled at no matter what as displacement is intrinsic to human nature and even happens between people at work.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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That particular Carl Jung statement contradicted something that I've read elsewhere: that that sort of oversensitive behavior is something T-doms exhibit under stress. Not all the time.
There is also more info earlier on when he discusses the dominant function where he makes a point of saying it isn't true in all cases. Nothing I said was intended to be true in all cases either just to be extra clear about it. I have zero desire to apply anything on the individual level, especially criticisms in any thread discussing issues about type.

I also just recently read the OP which I don't agree with. Introverts are more likely to come online more aggressively than irl. Extroverts will be the same or even possibly less aggressive online because there isn't the same felt social reciprocity.

To lighten my posts, may I present you all with two choice specimens of possible Te-doms:

The Dark Knight, ENTJ who only "bullies" the bad guys
20110813_batman_small.jpg


Michael Bluth from Arrested Development, ESTJ
th
 

EJCC

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Michael Bluth from Arrested Development, ESTJ
th
^ That typing would explain why I gave up on that show after the first episode. I felt his pain too much. :laugh:
 

violet_crown

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To what extent to you think all of this applies to INTJs as well - or more specifically, what distinctions do you see between the kind of testing we do and the ENTJ variety, and the way empathy, or lack thereof, influences our interactions. People use the word "intimidating" in connection with INTJs from time to time, but I don't see "bullying" much. What is the distinction?

Mm. From what I've gathered, it's more a difference in methodology and how the elicited data is analyzed than purpose/motivation. INTJs seem to have a bit more of an innate sense of where someone's coming from than ENTJs do, so the testing that they do seem to be more about validating those intuitions. I think it's the flip flop of the position of Se and Fi between the types. ENTJs need things to be explicit: we need something concrete, external and objective that we can point to before we feel comfortable making some kind of inference about where someone's at now or how they'll behave in the future. We're less comfortable with the "why" than the "what" or "how". By contrast, "why" is the question that seems to get an INTJ intrigued to begin with, and the whole process of understanding and knowledge that results from it is just inherently more intimate. It's definitely more dangerous, but maybe more elegant as well.

And it gets to the second question. I think that because INTJ seem to understand other people better, and tend to be more controlled in how they interact with others, the net result is people tend to respect them more. I think that the irony is that ENTJs are a bit more tenderhearted of the two. Even if we are being assholes, we're pretty easy to guilt out of it when someone gets through to us that we're causing real harm. Aggression is more unnerving in INTJs because there's a sense that the INTJ is fully aware of what he or she is doing, why it would cause harm to you in particular, and has made the choice to do it anyways. That's terrifying to most folks.

Whereas with the ENTJs, I think that most people get that our aggression is pretty depersonalized. Like, if we're the sort to engage in such things, we shit on everyone equally, but no one especially? It's 100% about us or whatever our particular agenda is, which makes it easier to just write us off altogether even if we are making a nuisance of ourselves.

Does that make sense?
 

Totenkindly

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And it gets to the second question. I think that because INTJ seem to understand other people better, and tend to be more controlled in how they interact with others, the net result is people tend to respect them more. I think that the irony is that ENTJs are a bit more tenderhearted of the two. Even if we are being assholes, we're pretty easy to guilt out of it when someone gets through to us that we're causing real harm. Aggression is more unnerving in INTJs because there's a sense that the INTJ is fully aware of what he or she is doing, why it would cause harm to you in particular, and has made the choice to do it anyways. That's terrifying to most folks.

Whereas with the ENTJs, I think that most people get that our aggression is pretty depersonalized. Like, if we're the sort to engage in such things, we shit on everyone equally, but no one especially? It's 100% about us or whatever our particular agenda is, which makes it easier to just write us off altogether even if we are making a nuisance of ourselves.

That kind of gels with what I've seen, watching INTJs and ENTJs.

I end up dealing with a number of ENTJs elsewhere, assertive ones (well, as a squeamish IP I tend to see it as "aggressive" but I've enough experience to realize it's just how they do things), and since it's just business as usual for them, I've learned to not let it rattle me much. Just be direct and don't flinch, act casual, and I'll be fine. [hahah, I make it sound like i'm walking through a cage of lions or something -- "DON'T LET THEM SEE THE FEAR IN YOUR EYES"]

I'd be more worried about the INTJ who comes gunning for me, I'd feel it was far more calculated in its intention.
 

prplchknz

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numerous ENTJs (including a few who have posted here) i've seen bully and maybe it's a blind spot, but them saying they never bully is utter fucking bs. and there truth about others is all projection, like they know more than any one else.personally i wouldn't care if a handful of them just dissapeared
 

nonchalant

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I don't think the ENTJs are the bullies. I think that the ESTP/ISTPs are the bullies.

As an INFP, I can get along with the ENTJ/ESTJs, I just can't get along with the XSTPs. If you don't buy into their charms, they would try to eliminate you, for example, if you work with them or work for them.

Working with the ENTJs, they always get their work done. If they want you to help them, they would give you a logical reason of why you should help them.

ESTJs often get their work done so you don't have to worry about them. They often follow the rules and do things by the book I have no problem with that.

It's the SPs I just can't get along with because they are often unpredictable.
 

Bardsandwarriors

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I think ENTJs can come across as bullying because they like to take charge of people, but their understanding of people is limited. That need to dominate, combined with a relative lack of sympathetic feeling for the people being dominated, can be a real problem.

They will say and do things all the time which seem unfair, unfeeling or childishly selfish. Their "baby Fi" takes on huge proportions, in the eyes of the people under them, and really they need an F beside them to temper everything they do, or to act as a go-between.

When the ENTJ is in charge of a project, without a direct effect on the people, it's not so much of a problem.
 

Xander

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I think ENTJs can come across as bullying because they like to take charge of people, but their understanding of people is limited. That need to dominate, combined with a relative lack of sympathetic feeling for the people being dominated, can be a real problem.

They will say and do things all the time which seem unfair, unfeeling or childishly selfish. Their "baby Fi" takes on huge proportions, in the eyes of the people under them, and really they need an F beside them to temper everything they do, or to act as a go-between.

When the ENTJ is in charge of a project, without a direct effect on the people, it's not so much of a problem.
I wouldn't say that an ENTJ necessarily needs to control people, in fact the people are often the problem in an otherwise lovely system. The ENTJs I know only try to control people to achieve what they see as needing to happen. If they could achieve it without affecting people, they would as the change in the person is not their goal, that's more ENFJ.

Also, my father was an ENTJ in HR and it has it's upsides. Imagine having to face an HR representative as an executive officer when you were about to implement something dumb which will affect the workforce.
 

Bardsandwarriors

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people are often the problem in an otherwise lovely system. The ENTJs I know only try to control people to achieve what they see as needing to happen.

See, that's the problem. People exist, and people are part of most systems. People as cogs in your finely, majestically honed system.
 

Xander

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See, that's the problem. People exist, and people are part of most systems. People as cogs in your finely, majestically honed system.
Yup. However, without a system to control them (let's face it, all systems control people to a certain degree) you get chaos. Order is necessary for structure, items to be made and sold, progress. To one degree or another, people stand in the way of that. You can either defend the individuals rights above that of the populace or you have to back down a certain degree and that's where the ENTJ typically comes unstuck because they are more prone to value the system than the individual.

Many times I've heard "I don't suffer fools gladly" but many of those times the meaning should more accurately be stated as "I don't suffer characters gladly" as I've seen otherwise intelligent and constructive individuals sidelined because they don't fit nicely in the boxes assigned, however, the saying is propagated.
 

Coriolis

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Mm. From what I've gathered, it's more a difference in methodology and how the elicited data is analyzed than purpose/motivation. INTJs seem to have a bit more of an innate sense of where someone's coming from than ENTJs do, so the testing that they do seem to be more about validating those intuitions. I think it's the flip flop of the position of Se and Fi between the types. ENTJs need things to be explicit: we need something concrete, external and objective that we can point to before we feel comfortable making some kind of inference about where someone's at now or how they'll behave in the future. We're less comfortable with the "why" than the "what" or "how". By contrast, "why" is the question that seems to get an INTJ intrigued to begin with, and the whole process of understanding and knowledge that results from it is just inherently more intimate. It's definitely more dangerous, but maybe more elegant as well.
You are right about "why". If I understand what and how, I might understand the present situation. If I understand why, I can understand any situation, or at least any sufficiently similar one. It is a more general question.

And it gets to the second question. I think that because INTJ seem to understand other people better, and tend to be more controlled in how they interact with others, the net result is people tend to respect them more. I think that the irony is that ENTJs are a bit more tenderhearted of the two. Even if we are being assholes, we're pretty easy to guilt out of it when someone gets through to us that we're causing real harm. Aggression is more unnerving in INTJs because there's a sense that the INTJ is fully aware of what he or she is doing, why it would cause harm to you in particular, and has made the choice to do it anyways. That's terrifying to most folks.

Whereas with the ENTJs, I think that most people get that our aggression is pretty depersonalized. Like, if we're the sort to engage in such things, we shit on everyone equally, but no one especially? It's 100% about us or whatever our particular agenda is, which makes it easier to just write us off altogether even if we are making a nuisance of ourselves.
Do INTJ really understand people better? Usually this sort of interpersonal insight is considered one of our weaknesses. Then again, perhaps you are just saying that ENTJ is even worse.

I'm not sure INTJs are actually aggressive that often, though obviously depends on how you define aggression. What we do still tends to be depersonalized, but I do agree with your overall characterization. To spell it out: we are (or at least I am) usually aware of when something I am doing is going to harm someone else, and do choose to go ahead with it anyway. This is not because I don't care about the other person or because I want to harm them, but rather because I consider the outcome a greater good, or avoidance of an even greater harm, sometimes even for the affected person. So even then, the hurt is not personal or intentional, it is simply collateral damage, taken into account in the cost/benefit calculation for the decision.
 
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