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  1. #281
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What exactly are these?
    "Preface abrasive speech with the phrase, "With all due respect...", as it gives those around you a polite heads up you're about to tell them to go fuck themselves."

    -Emily Post
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth
    Likes Xander, EcK liked this post

  2. #282
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    If you announce some sort of truth to people without tact, or understanding of who the audience is, then it's very unlikely to be well received or received at all.

    If you take into consideration who people are, and what needs to be said and how to increase the odds of them accepting a truth, then it is more easily and efficiently taken.

    It comes down to the human element, which unfortunately the truth must be fit to. Truth does no good if others don't regard it.
    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    That's basically what I was going to say. The difference is tact. You can tell someone he's an idiot, and it might be true. But it's not going to be as well received as, say, "I'm afraid you're misinformed."
    One person's tact is another person's sugar-coating and beating around the bush. For some reason, in discussions like this people always want to contrast the extremes: "You're an idiot" vs. "I'm afraid you're misinformed". How about the neutral happy medium of "You're wrong/mistaken." No insult, no pussyfooting, just the facts, at least as well as the speaker knows them.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #283
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    One person's tact is another person's sugar-coating and beating around the bush. For some reason, in discussions like this people always want to contrast the extremes: "You're an idiot" vs. "I'm afraid you're misinformed". How about the neutral happy medium of "You're wrong/mistaken." No insult, no pussyfooting, just the facts, at least as well as the speaker knows them.
    It's an extreme example, but it still applies. The fact of the matter is how things are presented, matters. Sometimes it's as simple as vocal intonation, but it has an effect. Sometimes it's shitty that it has to be dealt with, but it's the way it is.

    My mother is an example of this. She is rather smart, but if you don't explain things to her in the right way, regardless of how true it is or not, she'll dig in and reject it. Then there are others (such as yourself) where it doesn't matter nearly at all. It varies from person to person.

    I'm also sensitive to things. My adviser has learned that if he tells me that I fucked up wrong, I'll fall apart. Done right though, I improve from it rather quickly. People are different and we all must do our best to accommodate to them to achieve the best results. With time we can usually learn quickly how to approach them. I am of the opinion it's best to opt on the safe side and be as cordial as possible until it's been shown that it doesn't need to be done. It decreases the odds of mess-ups.
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  4. #284
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What exactly are these?
    I would say it's using ad-hominem attacks. Like calling people morons or trying to smear their character or something as a debate tactic. (To me, that's just a road flare saying you don't have an actual counter-argument.)

    I'm not really in favor of sugar-coating, either; such behavior tends to confuse the hell out of me whenever it comes my way. When someone is trying to tell me something, but they're sugarcoating and I have to guess at the actual point they're trying to make, I get irritated, especially because people that do that never clarify when I ask for clarifications.

    There are some people that I have to sugar-coat things with, though, because they can't handle anything. It's extremely annoying, and makes me feel like a kindergarten teacher, but it's really the only thing that can be done.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  5. #285
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    I see what you mean. Let me explain.

    1. The reason I wrote "honest" in capital letters is to get people's attention when the are scrolling down. I want them to read the section "ENTJs are honest" at least before they keep scrolling down.
    You cretin!

    It does work rather well... Possibly an INTP thing coming from hating to be ignored.
    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    2. Wrong. I value the truth more than anything. "The truth sets you free" is my life right there. I know the truth and I want to tell it to everyone and prove it if they don't believe me. But you contradicted yourself right here. If INTPs value the truth and argue about it, why assume you are wrong? You know the truth and you have to prove it. If I am wrong and know it, I don't argue. It's simple.
    Whoa there cochise, I'm a P God Damn it Jim, not a scientist. I don't believe in absolutes. Absolutely not!

    I'm always trying to think of something even better even when I think I've nailed it. It's kind of part of the whole long reaching intuition. Drives ENTJs mad usually not that I get any kind of enjoyment from that you understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    3. No. The ENTJ is talking and the sensitive is listening. The sensitives don't want to understand the truth because they can't handle it. I can understand that, but what I can't understand is, how can they be so happy living a lie?
    We all live a lie. Hell the whole setup is a bunch of lies we tell ourselves to keep operating.

    The real factor though is what's the point of just having a good answer if it's never implemented. Pure frustration. Mind you I'm the son of an ENTJ so that may be creeping in there...
    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    4. I totally understand what you mean. But the thing is, emotions are necessary, but not when they get in the way of the truth.
    If your perception defines your reality and pain is relative to the person experiencing it then emotion is rarely irrelevant. Sometimes it just needs shooting stone cold dead though. Mind you I think that about people some days too... Okay, most days.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #286
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    One person's tact is another person's sugar-coating and beating around the bush. For some reason, in discussions like this people always want to contrast the extremes: "You're an idiot" vs. "I'm afraid you're misinformed". How about the neutral happy medium of "You're wrong/mistaken." No insult, no pussyfooting, just the facts, at least as well as the speaker knows them.
    The problem is you're crossing opinion with information gained from observation. No one is wrong, they are just not in possession of the same facts or have misinterpreted something (the latter you did mention but I'm being holistic here).

    It's often far better to use coaching techniques and make them do the hard work unless you are pressed for time and in which case the truth is you need them to just go with it. Ergo just say "I'm pressed for time, I'm asking you to just go with it for jow" then schedule a time slot to hear their objections. Given the time to think and the experience of your plan they may either have good feedback or have seen your good ideas work and so just have praise. Either way you have continued to respect them as a person.

    Of course some will refuse but we know what to do with them, don't we precious.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #287
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    The bullying I'm referring too sounds like this...

    "Even a moron knows how derivatives are valued"

    "You have to be a retard. Unless your mother dropped you when you were a baby and you had some serious brain damage and can barely feed yourself perhaps you would know about the black-sholes model."

    things of that nature. I particularly hate the word retard when used in a derogatory way and I immediately lose all respect for anyone who uses it no matter who what or where....

    and then other people chiming in like...

    "I'm user777, you retard...you're clearly an idiot.."

    I can understand something like, "even a moron could do that..." in a certain context...but between two people and one making a public spectacle out of the other Is jarring.

    Note: all from entj message boards on the net......

    I find there are like five or six entj's on respective entj boards like reddit and they have been there for like 4 years and they get really mad when another person comes on the board, entj or not. On some boards you even have to ask the users to post there, benign or not, even though the admins don't care.

    Again, if you know anything about entj's...very, very few have active memberships to forums for 4 + years...so i think they are just trolls/narcissists who feed off lost souls.

    I find this ONLY on very few website forum sections and one of them is ENTJ on any given board except for this one...

    On one site i was defending an old woman who was fighting what seemed to be another old woman entj and the woman entj was calling her a tramp.

    here people are quite mature...if they are making snarky funny comments they don't use words like that because they are incredibly intelligent and truly humorous.

    I know everyone on my friends list here, and some others I've missed, have made me smile from ear to ear even in pure and utter sarcasm. It's a rare breed here. It's top notch.

    Plus I have asbergers syndrome and even though I am smart and have academic accolades I've only recently been able to finally make a decent living so when someone calls me a retard it makes me feel like rat **** and I have distant relatives who are autistic so it's very, very jarring...

    I remember the bullies in high-school who used to say that I would never make it because even though I had straight A's I didn't have common sense...well now I'm finally paying my rent so ha ha to them..
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  8. #288
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    It's an extreme example, but it still applies. The fact of the matter is how things are presented, matters. Sometimes it's as simple as vocal intonation, but it has an effect. Sometimes it's shitty that it has to be dealt with, but it's the way it is.
    I agree that how things are presented matters, but when I think of presentation, I think: concise vs. wordy, organized vs. rambling and circuitous, includes examples or just unsupported claims; etc. I, for instance, prefer concise organized presentation that includes relevant examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I would say it's using ad-hominem attacks. Like calling people morons or trying to smear their character or something as a debate tactic. (To me, that's just a road flare saying you don't have an actual counter-argument.)
    I agree completely about the ad-hominem attacks. We start with the basic information, as plain and unvarnished as it gets. Then we can overlay either insults and aggression, or "compliment sandwiches", pleasantries, etc. I prefer to overlay nothing. Keep it simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The problem is you're crossing opinion with information gained from observation. No one is wrong, they are just not in possession of the same facts or have misinterpreted something (the latter you did mention but I'm being holistic here).

    It's often far better to use coaching techniques and make them do the hard work unless you are pressed for time and in which case the truth is you need them to just go with it. Ergo just say "I'm pressed for time, I'm asking you to just go with it for jow" then schedule a time slot to hear their objections. Given the time to think and the experience of your plan they may either have good feedback or have seen your good ideas work and so just have praise. Either way you have continued to respect them as a person.
    Sometimes people are wrong, and sometimes that person is even me. I prefer to be told "you're wrong/your conclusion is wrong because . . . " and will tell someone else the same thing, if that is my best information. To me that candor and conciseness is a form of respect. The other person is free to disagree with my statement, and a discussion can then ensue during which we together get to the bottom of the question. I am always interested in feedback, but prefer it be given to me straight. I was going to write "especially in a work setting", but I seem to prefer it overall.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #289
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I agree that how things are presented matters, but when I think of presentation, I think: concise vs. wordy, organized vs. rambling and circuitous, includes examples or just unsupported claims; etc. I, for instance, prefer concise organized presentation that includes relevant examples.
    That's the stuff that I am not entirely talking about. What I am referring to is the subjective way things are done, not in the objective way you're stating. Objective matters, in the examples you pointed out. Subjective does as well, as I have previously stated.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  10. #290
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Note: all from entj message boards on the net......
    I think this conforms to the basic rules of being a T. If you're stressed out and need to denigrate someone, question/ undermine their intellect.

    The scariest thing is after you read that the thing you despise in others the most is the thing you fear is true of yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Sometimes people are wrong, and sometimes that person is even me. I prefer to be told "you're wrong/your conclusion is wrong because . . . " and will tell someone else the same thing, if that is my best information. To me that candor and conciseness is a form of respect. The other person is free to disagree with my statement, and a discussion can then ensue during which we together get to the bottom of the question. I am always interested in feedback, but prefer it be given to me straight. I was going to write "especially in a work setting", but I seem to prefer it overall.
    I'm British, if that wasn't obvious by the impeccable manners and excellent command of English. As a brit I'm brought up with a conversational style which requires the listener to do some of the work. When I started posting on forums I was greeted with a lot of people who wanted me to explain everything and would make aspersions based on me not explaining myself to their satisfaction. Now I could have just stuck talking to those who could follow me and put two fingers up to all others but that would say as much about how limited my capabilities are as theirs. Hence I've learned to be less non-sequiturs but it doesn't stop me meandering around a subject like a cross eyed glaswegian after a long night out.

    I would suggest the same to you. You know your preferences but are you aware if the preferences of the other person and are you as accommodating as you are asking them to be?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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