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  1. #211
    Xena's boyfriend Bardsandwarriors's Avatar
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    What a nasty boy. I've reported your post for unprovoked belligerence.
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    Neutral good Fi-ENFp 4w3 sp/so 479 gentle spirit, 50yo male. Travels the land seeking a good sig line.

  2. #212
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Let's both of you dial it back a bit, shall we? Thanks.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #213
    Xena's boyfriend Bardsandwarriors's Avatar
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    May I continue discussing this with Xander, without unsolicited insults from anyone else?
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    Neutral good Fi-ENFp 4w3 sp/so 479 gentle spirit, 50yo male. Travels the land seeking a good sig line.

  4. #214
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardsandwarriors View Post
    If it's all system, ENTJs are jerks. If it's all individuals, it's almighty chaos.
    Out of curiosity, why is it you stated ENTJs are "jerks" if it's "all system," but there is no corresponding type that is also a "jerk" if it's "all individuals"?

  5. #215
    Xena's boyfriend Bardsandwarriors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Out of curiosity, why is it you stated ENTJs are "jerks" if it's "all system," but there is no corresponding type that is also a "jerk" if it's "all individuals"?
    Jerk aka bully is a reference to the thread title and theme. I was not implying that all entj's are jerks, just as the thread opener is not implying that all entj's are bullies. I was paraphrasing, with explanation of when and why the appeaance of bullying seems to take place.

    Chaos was a direct reply to Xander's "chaos" = what happens when systems are not in place.
    Status: was , then , now
    Neutral good Fi-ENFp 4w3 sp/so 479 gentle spirit, 50yo male. Travels the land seeking a good sig line.

  6. #216
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardsandwarriors View Post
    It's somewhat more nuanced than that. The ENFP trait, at least in me, is not to value the individuals more than the system - but to permit the individuals to operate in a self-directed, self-respecting way within society. Society needs systems, but if they are designed in a way that shuts down honest people, then it grates. Where chaos is good, is when the chaotic people are acting for the good. Where chaos is bad, is when dishonest and overly selfish people are permitted to abuse other people. So a system on which society operates needs to permit one, while curbing the other.

    People are the start and the end of every system in society. (I may be going round in circles here, putting F before T). From my pov, the system is a tool of the people; rather than people being a tool of the system.

    Those people that you put into the system, are also supposed to be the beneficiaries of it.

    You also mention manufacturing. Well, that's a whole nother kettle of fish - production lines and robots
    classic ENFP to my ears.
    "I'm not sure what rules I want to obey so I'm certain I don't want you deciding for me"

    The problem is that people are mindless reactionary cavemen with a vicious nature and a cowardly streak a mile wide. An individual, however, is a reasonable thinking person capable of great compassion and honour. How do you put a system into place to ensure that both are catered for? The answer is probably that you lock an ENTJ and an ENFP in a room to figure it out and any idea they both agree on , you implement.
    (of course you'd ask an INTP to check your work first for errors and logical inconsistencies)

    Trust me, my father ENTJ finds my long term friend ENFP as much of a douche as vice versa. They both see the others point, respect it, the person saying it and their intelligence but neither could walk as the other. It just doesn't fit right.

    Now take that experience and understanding away and you have the potential for conflict. At which point I would expect the ENTJ to emerge the victor due to their superior constructive and destructive ability as they sum their efforts (J) where as the ENFP is half at war with himself (P). In the aftermath both sides would see the other in a less than favourable light but it's the ENTJ who has used a style closest to what is commonly referred to as bullying and hence they'd get the label.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #217
    Xena's boyfriend Bardsandwarriors's Avatar
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    TBH, I was pitching my comments directly at Xander, having got some measure of his easy-going style of discussion. I was not expecting someone else to hotly misinterpret my comments and stamp all over me.
    Last edited by Bardsandwarriors; 03-18-2015 at 01:28 PM. Reason: typos
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    Neutral good Fi-ENFp 4w3 sp/so 479 gentle spirit, 50yo male. Travels the land seeking a good sig line.

  8. #218
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Out of curiosity, why is it you stated ENTJs are "jerks" if it's "all system," but there is no corresponding type that is also a "jerk" if it's "all individuals"?
    Personally I'd say that if someone is all anything then they're a jerk to many people.

    Balance... I'm all balance...

    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #219
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Personally I'd say that if someone is all anything then they're a jerk to many people. Balance... I'm all balance...
    Exactly my opinion.
    Likes Bush Did 9/11 liked this post

  10. #220
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Exactly my opinion.
    Jerk.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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