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  1. #201
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Mm. From what I've gathered, it's more a difference in methodology and how the elicited data is analyzed than purpose/motivation. INTJs seem to have a bit more of an innate sense of where someone's coming from than ENTJs do, so the testing that they do seem to be more about validating those intuitions. I think it's the flip flop of the position of Se and Fi between the types. ENTJs need things to be explicit: we need something concrete, external and objective that we can point to before we feel comfortable making some kind of inference about where someone's at now or how they'll behave in the future. We're less comfortable with the "why" than the "what" or "how". By contrast, "why" is the question that seems to get an INTJ intrigued to begin with, and the whole process of understanding and knowledge that results from it is just inherently more intimate. It's definitely more dangerous, but maybe more elegant as well.
    You are right about "why". If I understand what and how, I might understand the present situation. If I understand why, I can understand any situation, or at least any sufficiently similar one. It is a more general question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    And it gets to the second question. I think that because INTJ seem to understand other people better, and tend to be more controlled in how they interact with others, the net result is people tend to respect them more. I think that the irony is that ENTJs are a bit more tenderhearted of the two. Even if we are being assholes, we're pretty easy to guilt out of it when someone gets through to us that we're causing real harm. Aggression is more unnerving in INTJs because there's a sense that the INTJ is fully aware of what he or she is doing, why it would cause harm to you in particular, and has made the choice to do it anyways. That's terrifying to most folks.

    Whereas with the ENTJs, I think that most people get that our aggression is pretty depersonalized. Like, if we're the sort to engage in such things, we shit on everyone equally, but no one especially? It's 100% about us or whatever our particular agenda is, which makes it easier to just write us off altogether even if we are making a nuisance of ourselves.
    Do INTJ really understand people better? Usually this sort of interpersonal insight is considered one of our weaknesses. Then again, perhaps you are just saying that ENTJ is even worse.

    I'm not sure INTJs are actually aggressive that often, though obviously depends on how you define aggression. What we do still tends to be depersonalized, but I do agree with your overall characterization. To spell it out: we are (or at least I am) usually aware of when something I am doing is going to harm someone else, and do choose to go ahead with it anyway. This is not because I don't care about the other person or because I want to harm them, but rather because I consider the outcome a greater good, or avoidance of an even greater harm, sometimes even for the affected person. So even then, the hurt is not personal or intentional, it is simply collateral damage, taken into account in the cost/benefit calculation for the decision.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  2. #202
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Do INTJ really understand people better? Usually this sort of interpersonal insight is considered one of our weaknesses. Then again, perhaps you are just saying that ENTJ is even worse.
    Actually, I think that INTJs understand people just fine when they care to. My observation on where you guys fall down is not the insight, but the ritual. Fi seems to work in you guys such that when you want to express something to someone else, you can be kind of insistent on the right to express not just what you feel, but conveying it in a way that feels right to you personally. Sometimes this need for it to "feel right" for the INTJ will trump the needs/feels/preferences of the other party. It's like "HEY, I'M FEELING THIS FEELING RIGHT NOW", and the other party just has to figure out what to do with it.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth
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  3. #203
    Xena's boyfriend Bardsandwarriors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    You can either defend the individuals rights above that of the populace or you have to back down a certain degree and that's where the ENTJ typically comes unstuck because they are more prone to value the system than the individual.
    It's somewhat more nuanced than that. The ENFP trait, at least in me, is not to value the individuals more than the system - but to permit the individuals to operate in a self-directed, self-respecting way within society. Society needs systems, but if they are designed in a way that shuts down honest people, then it grates. Where chaos is good, is when the chaotic people are acting for the good. Where chaos is bad, is when dishonest and overly selfish people are permitted to abuse other people. So a system on which society operates needs to permit one, while curbing the other.

    People are the start and the end of every system in society. (I may be going round in circles here, putting F before T). From my pov, the system is a tool of the people; rather than people being a tool of the system.

    Those people that you put into the system, are also supposed to be the beneficiaries of it.

    You also mention manufacturing. Well, that's a whole nother kettle of fish - production lines and robots
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  4. #204
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardsandwarriors View Post
    It's somewhat more nuanced than that. The ENFP trait, at least in me, is not to value the individuals more than the system - but to permit the individuals to operate in a self-directed, self-respecting way within society. Society needs systems, but if they are designed in a way that shuts down honest people, then it grates. Where chaos is good, is when the chaotic people are acting for the good. Where chaos is bad, is when dishonest and overly selfish people are permitted to abuse other people. So a system on which society operates needs to permit one, while curbing the other.

    People are the start and the end of every system in society. (I may be going round in circles here, putting F before T). From my pov, the system is a tool of the people; rather than people being a tool of the system.
    So your issue boils to down to ENTJs are not ENFPs. Got it.

    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  5. #205
    Xena's boyfriend Bardsandwarriors's Avatar
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    You ain't got it. It's not about stereotypes - individuals OR system. It's about getting the mix right. If it's all system, ENTJs are jerks. If it's all individuals, it's almighty chaos.
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  6. #206
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    what? this thread is fiction. whats the name of the fairytale your discussing here, guys?
    healthiness is all about appreciating other peoples inferior function. its like the sore spot no one ever notices, but we desperately wish they did, and if you focus on doing that, youll have many friends. and also learn to appreciate your own inferior function, others wont find it stupid if you show them how cool it is.

    INTJ 4w3 Sp Sx. (i dont believe in tritype. i do believe in learning traits from others.)

    mistakes happen. expect them, and grow from them. look for them, and avoid them.

  7. #207
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardsandwarriors View Post
    You ain't got it. It's not about stereotypes - individuals OR system. It's about getting the mix right. If it's all system, ENTJs are jerks. If it's all individuals, it's almighty chaos.
    How about I handle my area of strength and competency, you handle yours and we both just have enough respect for each other to recognize that both are equally valuable even if the other's thing isn't really our thing. That way you don't have to proselytize to me, I don't have to be dismissive of you, and something might actually get done here. How does that sound?
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  8. #208
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    uhm

    INTJs don't understand people better, they want to understand them. And any Ne type is going to make that difficult for them.

  9. #209
    Xena's boyfriend Bardsandwarriors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    How about I handle my area of strength and competency, you handle yours and we both just have enough respect for each other to recognize that both are equally valuable even if the other's thing isn't really our thing. That way you don't have to proselytize to me, I don't have to be dismissive of you, and something might actually get done here. How does that sound?
    I have no idea what your "area of strength and competency" is. If it's being completely dismissive and demeaning to a relative newbie posting his own answer in good faith, you're doing very well.

    "So your issue boils to down to ENTJs are not ENFPs. Got it."

    Can we leave it there. I'll continue discussing it with Xander.
    Status: was , then , now
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  10. #210
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardsandwarriors View Post
    I have no idea what your "area of strength and competency" is. If it's being completely dismissive and demeaning to a relative newbie posting his own answer in good faith, you're doing very well.

    "So your issue boils to down to ENTJs are not ENFPs. Got it."

    Can we leave it there. I'll continue discussing it with Xander.
    You're welcome to lurk until you're ready for your seat at the adults table.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

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