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  1. #191
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    That particular Carl Jung statement contradicted something that I've read elsewhere: that that sort of oversensitive behavior is something T-doms exhibit under stress. Not all the time.
    There is also more info earlier on when he discusses the dominant function where he makes a point of saying it isn't true in all cases. Nothing I said was intended to be true in all cases either just to be extra clear about it. I have zero desire to apply anything on the individual level, especially criticisms in any thread discussing issues about type.

    I also just recently read the OP which I don't agree with. Introverts are more likely to come online more aggressively than irl. Extroverts will be the same or even possibly less aggressive online because there isn't the same felt social reciprocity.

    To lighten my posts, may I present you all with two choice specimens of possible Te-doms:

    The Dark Knight, ENTJ who only "bullies" the bad guys


    Michael Bluth from Arrested Development, ESTJ
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)
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  2. #192
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Michael Bluth from Arrested Development, ESTJ
    ^ That typing would explain why I gave up on that show after the first episode. I felt his pain too much.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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  3. #193
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    To what extent to you think all of this applies to INTJs as well - or more specifically, what distinctions do you see between the kind of testing we do and the ENTJ variety, and the way empathy, or lack thereof, influences our interactions. People use the word "intimidating" in connection with INTJs from time to time, but I don't see "bullying" much. What is the distinction?
    Mm. From what I've gathered, it's more a difference in methodology and how the elicited data is analyzed than purpose/motivation. INTJs seem to have a bit more of an innate sense of where someone's coming from than ENTJs do, so the testing that they do seem to be more about validating those intuitions. I think it's the flip flop of the position of Se and Fi between the types. ENTJs need things to be explicit: we need something concrete, external and objective that we can point to before we feel comfortable making some kind of inference about where someone's at now or how they'll behave in the future. We're less comfortable with the "why" than the "what" or "how". By contrast, "why" is the question that seems to get an INTJ intrigued to begin with, and the whole process of understanding and knowledge that results from it is just inherently more intimate. It's definitely more dangerous, but maybe more elegant as well.

    And it gets to the second question. I think that because INTJ seem to understand other people better, and tend to be more controlled in how they interact with others, the net result is people tend to respect them more. I think that the irony is that ENTJs are a bit more tenderhearted of the two. Even if we are being assholes, we're pretty easy to guilt out of it when someone gets through to us that we're causing real harm. Aggression is more unnerving in INTJs because there's a sense that the INTJ is fully aware of what he or she is doing, why it would cause harm to you in particular, and has made the choice to do it anyways. That's terrifying to most folks.

    Whereas with the ENTJs, I think that most people get that our aggression is pretty depersonalized. Like, if we're the sort to engage in such things, we shit on everyone equally, but no one especially? It's 100% about us or whatever our particular agenda is, which makes it easier to just write us off altogether even if we are making a nuisance of ourselves.

    Does that make sense?
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
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  4. #194
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    And it gets to the second question. I think that because INTJ seem to understand other people better, and tend to be more controlled in how they interact with others, the net result is people tend to respect them more. I think that the irony is that ENTJs are a bit more tenderhearted of the two. Even if we are being assholes, we're pretty easy to guilt out of it when someone gets through to us that we're causing real harm. Aggression is more unnerving in INTJs because there's a sense that the INTJ is fully aware of what he or she is doing, why it would cause harm to you in particular, and has made the choice to do it anyways. That's terrifying to most folks.

    Whereas with the ENTJs, I think that most people get that our aggression is pretty depersonalized. Like, if we're the sort to engage in such things, we shit on everyone equally, but no one especially? It's 100% about us or whatever our particular agenda is, which makes it easier to just write us off altogether even if we are making a nuisance of ourselves.
    That kind of gels with what I've seen, watching INTJs and ENTJs.

    I end up dealing with a number of ENTJs elsewhere, assertive ones (well, as a squeamish IP I tend to see it as "aggressive" but I've enough experience to realize it's just how they do things), and since it's just business as usual for them, I've learned to not let it rattle me much. Just be direct and don't flinch, act casual, and I'll be fine. [hahah, I make it sound like i'm walking through a cage of lions or something -- "DON'T LET THEM SEE THE FEAR IN YOUR EYES"]

    I'd be more worried about the INTJ who comes gunning for me, I'd feel it was far more calculated in its intention.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #195
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    numerous ENTJs (including a few who have posted here) i've seen bully and maybe it's a blind spot, but them saying they never bully is utter fucking bs. and there truth about others is all projection, like they know more than any one else.personally i wouldn't care if a handful of them just dissapeared
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  6. #196
    Member nonchalant's Avatar
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    I don't think the ENTJs are the bullies. I think that the ESTP/ISTPs are the bullies.

    As an INFP, I can get along with the ENTJ/ESTJs, I just can't get along with the XSTPs. If you don't buy into their charms, they would try to eliminate you, for example, if you work with them or work for them.

    Working with the ENTJs, they always get their work done. If they want you to help them, they would give you a logical reason of why you should help them.

    ESTJs often get their work done so you don't have to worry about them. They often follow the rules and do things by the book I have no problem with that.

    It's the SPs I just can't get along with because they are often unpredictable.

  7. #197
    Xena's boyfriend Bardsandwarriors's Avatar
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    I think ENTJs can come across as bullying because they like to take charge of people, but their understanding of people is limited. That need to dominate, combined with a relative lack of sympathetic feeling for the people being dominated, can be a real problem.

    They will say and do things all the time which seem unfair, unfeeling or childishly selfish. Their "baby Fi" takes on huge proportions, in the eyes of the people under them, and really they need an F beside them to temper everything they do, or to act as a go-between.

    When the ENTJ is in charge of a project, without a direct effect on the people, it's not so much of a problem.
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  8. #198
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardsandwarriors View Post
    I think ENTJs can come across as bullying because they like to take charge of people, but their understanding of people is limited. That need to dominate, combined with a relative lack of sympathetic feeling for the people being dominated, can be a real problem.

    They will say and do things all the time which seem unfair, unfeeling or childishly selfish. Their "baby Fi" takes on huge proportions, in the eyes of the people under them, and really they need an F beside them to temper everything they do, or to act as a go-between.

    When the ENTJ is in charge of a project, without a direct effect on the people, it's not so much of a problem.
    I wouldn't say that an ENTJ necessarily needs to control people, in fact the people are often the problem in an otherwise lovely system. The ENTJs I know only try to control people to achieve what they see as needing to happen. If they could achieve it without affecting people, they would as the change in the person is not their goal, that's more ENFJ.

    Also, my father was an ENTJ in HR and it has it's upsides. Imagine having to face an HR representative as an executive officer when you were about to implement something dumb which will affect the workforce.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #199
    Xena's boyfriend Bardsandwarriors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    people are often the problem in an otherwise lovely system. The ENTJs I know only try to control people to achieve what they see as needing to happen.
    See, that's the problem. People exist, and people are part of most systems. People as cogs in your finely, majestically honed system.
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  10. #200
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bardsandwarriors View Post
    See, that's the problem. People exist, and people are part of most systems. People as cogs in your finely, majestically honed system.
    Yup. However, without a system to control them (let's face it, all systems control people to a certain degree) you get chaos. Order is necessary for structure, items to be made and sold, progress. To one degree or another, people stand in the way of that. You can either defend the individuals rights above that of the populace or you have to back down a certain degree and that's where the ENTJ typically comes unstuck because they are more prone to value the system than the individual.

    Many times I've heard "I don't suffer fools gladly" but many of those times the meaning should more accurately be stated as "I don't suffer characters gladly" as I've seen otherwise intelligent and constructive individuals sidelined because they don't fit nicely in the boxes assigned, however, the saying is propagated.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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