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  1. #181
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Just quickly: Fia was more about projections and reactions. By contrast, I'm talking more about the contrast between immaturity and maturity. Immature versions of any personality type tend to be abrasive, whereas mature versions of those same types have the rough edges sanded off. So I'm just saying that the immature version of Te-Dom probably merits to some extent the bad things that get said about Te-Doms (bullying, etc.), whereas the mature version of Te-Dom tends to be more respectful of things like limits and personal boundaries. Just like the immature and mature versions of every other type.
    I am going to correct this meme that is being thrown around, so people get the correct psychological terminology.

    There is a subjective element to my posts, which I have tried to state clearly in those same posts. It is not projection, it is transference. I have been personally hurt by Ti-doms and Te-doms and am transferring some of that frustration into what I'm trying to use as an abstract context, although some people are taking it personally. I do not know any individual Te-dom on this forum very well, so what I say may not apply to the individual. I am talking about the Te and/or Ti-doms that have exhibited behavior and some of the underlying subconscious psychological issues that drive it. What I have said is not at odds with Carl Jung's descriptions. To the extent that it is, anyone is free to point it out to me. I am not attacking anyone personally and have tried to say quite a few positive things about dominant personality types, including talking about the ones I admire. The sledge-hammer comment was negative, but some T-doms do that. If that statement hurts a reader, then it is not directed at them. It would mostly apply to the ones who use over-force to get their point across with complete disregard for consequences.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  2. #182
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    The big answer of course is because they have so little control over their immediate environment that they need to go online and assert control by reducing another in that environment.
    That would be pathetic if a person had to come online to "achieve" what they could not IRL. Perhaps you could add your .02 to this relevant thread: The Psychology of Online Comments

  3. #183
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    That would be pathetic if a person had to come online to "achieve" what they could not IRL. Perhaps you could add your .02 to this relevant thread: The Psychology of Online Comments
    i will soon. about to see a movie with my dad.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
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    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  4. #184
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    One mistake I might be making here is that most entj's on the net might actually just be narcissists misrepresenting real entj's....but who knows...I Can't tell from a message board interaction...all I know is that on other message boards, not here, I have come across entj's with explosive anger, who bully, and troll...and it is not just me who thinks so...

    go on the reddit forum for entj's and you will see other entj's there talking about forums and entj's bullies too.

    .
    I would not trust any online community to have accurately typed members. Too many people with half a clue selling certainty.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #185
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    So is Carl Jung completely irrelevant to this discussion?
    Perhaps if you tie how that statement contributes to the discussion at hand it may draw more comment. Not that I've read every post, many are very long. From that singular post though, it seems a little out of place and disconnected, hence my comment here.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #186
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    To what extent to you think all of this applies to INTJs as well - or more specifically, what distinctions do you see between the kind of testing we do and the ENTJ variety, and the way empathy, or lack thereof, influences our interactions. People use the word "intimidating" in connection with INTJs from time to time, but I don't see "bullying" much. What is the distinction?
    INTJs, that I know, do not bully. An INTJ is more likely to segregate anyone who doesn't "work out" to their minds. An ENTJ is far more likely to try to gain compliance, sometimes with force.

    In fact I think a good delineation between INTJ and ENTJ is in how much force they apply to obtain the result they set out for. An INTJ tends to analyse more to find the point at which little or no force is required where as an ENTJ will act sooner and use more force to achieve a similar result.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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  7. #187
    Member Tippo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Alright, so while my initial impulse was clearly to troll and disregard this thread, I'm opting to take a slightly more constructive approach in the name of good faith.

    Firstly, I want to make it clear that I'm neither apologizing nor defending ENTJs here, but I thought it might be interesting to share my experience and see if that sheds some light on this whole thing.

    Speaking for myself, as well as other ENTJs I've known well, empathy is without question a learned skill for us. With Fi in the inferior position we are typically unaware of what we feel much less have an inkling as to the inner lives of those around us. This obviously creates problems that we become aware of quite early on. You learn very quickly that your own thresholds don't necessarily apply to others, and absent that as a starting point (and having a fairly strong inclination towards empiricism besides) the only way to understand how to deal with people is through experience.

    I remember from a pretty early age that I would do what I thought of as "boundary testing". When I was dealing with someone, especially on a more personal basis, I would do little "test" to figure out what were and were not an acceptable range of interactions with that person. To an outside observer, this could be construed as "fucking with someone", and on a certain level they're not incorrect. I admit to having done what I recognize now to be some pretty fucked up things to other folks more or less in the name of Science. Over time, however, I learned that when I did such and such a thing it would cause someone to become upset, or such and such another thing and they would be happy. Because people even now are effectively black boxes to me, I still do some tests to understand what kind of person I'm dealing with, and gather a rough approximation of what their individual thresholds might be. It's thankfully a bit more subtle, but it's still part of the interaction.

    Now, obviously, there's two related points that go along with this basic idea. The first of those is that while most ENTJs engage in some form of boundary testing or another, they're not necessarily going to take responsibility for when things go too far and someone ends up genuinely hurt. The party line of the average ENTJ is, "Your feelings are not my responsibility." The logic there being regardless of what I've done to you, you can control the response that you have to that interaction, or (more to the point) you can put your big boy pants on and shelve your shit like I do. There's a lot of immaturity in that attitude, obviously. But the alternative is actual introspection and really owning not only the fact that your present way of doing business is sub-optimal not only for the other party but in how you deal with your own shit.

    ENTJs are not into the whole "being wrong" thing. We go to great lengths to have our shit together, and having to cop to a flaw...Well, let's just say that the whole notion of "falling on one's sword" was a house that baby Fi built.

    The second idea that I want to emphasize is that there's a kind of innocence when some ENTJs overstep. We're not geared towards people. We're geared towards effective problems solving. There are times when in our zeal to execute on the Prime Directive we will toss the baby right out with the bathwater, and be like, "Yeah, fuck that baby." And sleep pretty awesomely that night afterwards. Again, this goes to the idea that if you accept the premise that empathy is the province of inferior Fi, then going towards the place where we can perceive people (including ourselves) as intrinsically valuable feels like death.

    No, seriously.

    The best I can describe it, going towards Fi feels like you don't know what's going to happen, but you will in fact die if you allow yourself to be that vulnerable. Some get over the bitchassness and manage to anyways, but some never do. For me, my first step towards embracing that vulnerability was the recognition that regardless of how capable I might be, if I wasn't able to work with others I would never get anything done. Naturally, the problem with seeking to cultivate genuine empathy is that you may in fact succeed. I made the mistake of going full retard, and now have an abundance of feels. It is gross. I don't like to talk about it. But it is what it is. I will never be as naturally attuned to those around me as an NFP, nor have the innate poise and social confidence of an NFJ, but damned if I haven't found a greater depth, fulfillment and richness in my relationships with others as a result of learning to be more open.

    Either way, the point that I'm trying to make with sharing this with you is that ENTJs are coming from a much different place than most people. Our greatest strength ironically carries within it the seeds of our most self-destructive tendencies. We are not out to get you. Unfortunately, most of us don't really care too much about you one way or another. The best advice I can give to those who've had negative experiences with an ENTJ is to be direct and hold your ground when they're giving you a hard time. Ask them flat out what evidence they have for whatever bullshit aspersions they're casting your way. If they have grounds for what they're saying, then it gives them a chance to slow their roll, hear you out, and engage from a more reasonable place than one of YOU ARE RUINING EVERYTHING AND IF I DO NOT DESTROY YOU THEN TERRIBLE BUT HERETO UNKNOWN THINGS WILL OCCUR TO US ALL. And if they're just being dicks, then you basically calling on them for wasting everyone's time with bullshit will make them respect you. (ENTJs are basically all bratty, power bottoms, anyways. We like it when you knock us around a bit. It makes us feel secure and freer to let go and stuff. :3 Warning: Test this at your own hazard, tho...)

    Anyways, that's all I got. Hopefully this is helpful to someone.
    Great internal discoveries, I'm in this phase as well, it's more productive mostly.....
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  8. #188
    Member Tippo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    This is a good example. I think an ENTJ would bully in other situations too though. I remember reading that ENTJ's suffer, more than any other type, displacement. Because they are so in "control" of their emotions, or FI inferior, they tend to hold back, when being yelled at work, for example, and tend to take it out on their loved ones. This is also the key characteristic of a narcissist. As an ENTJ I did not know myself that I displaced but I Do. A lot of people do but an ENTJ h as a particular prolbem with it at work.

    IT is because they see the logical weaknesses of emotion that they repress it...but emotion is needed for boundries. We need to whine sometimes in the places we think we should not and vice versa...without emotional devices we have no way to build emotional boundries. I've learned this but most entj's will never learn it and hence continue to scream and shout at their loved ones while they nestle the foot of their boss in hopes of that next salary jump - no joke eNTJ's make a lot of money.

    This is why they are known to have explosive anger.

    One mistake I might be making here is that most entj's on the net might actually just be narcissists misrepresenting real entj's....but who knows...I Can't tell from a message board interaction...all I know is that on other message boards, not here, I have come across entj's with explosive anger, who bully, and troll...and it is not just me who thinks so...

    go on the reddit forum for entj's and you will see other entj's there talking about forums and entj's bullies too.

    .
    This is arrogant, however, being corrected or yelled at, rarely happened to me. The only instances I can draw from, the argument was coming from the uninformed or insecure less articulate. This never plagued me however I did get "let go" many times. Mostly without any discussion. I've always pioneered my own path, only in the later years, I learned to hide it. The last engineering position held, I was literally attacked, by a inferior vp, regarding my internet company and the success it was experiencing. 20 years back amazingly. I then went full time and made my salary after 2 months.
    I've learned i work great towards my goals, others are of little interest.
    Last edited by Tippo; 03-15-2015 at 01:48 AM. Reason: Grammar

  9. #189
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    So is Carl Jung completely irrelevant to this discussion?
    That particular Carl Jung statement contradicted something that I've read elsewhere: that that sort of oversensitive behavior is something T-doms exhibit under stress. Not all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    INTJs, that I know, do not bully. An INTJ is more likely to segregate anyone who doesn't "work out" to their minds. An ENTJ is far more likely to try to gain compliance, sometimes with force.

    In fact I think a good delineation between INTJ and ENTJ is in how much force they apply to obtain the result they set out for. An INTJ tends to analyse more to find the point at which little or no force is required where as an ENTJ will act sooner and use more force to achieve a similar result.
    This is also a good way to distinguish ESTJs from ISTJs IME. ISTJs are more likely to just sigh and shake their heads at someone being stupid -- whereas ESTJs are more likely to feel compelled to correct the stupidity.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


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  10. #190
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tippo View Post
    This is arrogant, however, being corrected or yelled at, rarely happened to me. The only instances I can draw from, the argument was coming from the uninformed or insecure less articulate. This never plagued me however I did get "let go" many times. Mostly without any discussion. I've always pioneered my own path, only in the later years, I learned to hide it. The last engineering position held, I was literally attacked, by a inferior vp, regarding my internet company and the success it was experiencing. 20 years back amazingly. I then went full time and made my salary after 2 months.
    I've learned i work great towards my goals, others are of little interest.
    That is not arrogant at all but there are some positions where everyone will be yelled at no matter what as displacement is intrinsic to human nature and even happens between people at work.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

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