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  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    It's pretty unfair to say that you're in dialogue with anything I've said to this point if you didn't actually bother to read it, nor take it into consideration with respect to what you might have already experienced. You're welcome to any opinion you might have, but leave me out of it.
    Alright, fine. Zero-11 was right. You never said anything like those things, and no Te-Dom would ever say those things. Furthermore, I misinterpreted everything you said.

    I'm still happy to stand by the things that I said based on my own personal experience alone. I have a lot of experience of Te-Doms, including some good friends among them. Henceforth I'll make my arguments based on personal experience and leave you and your posts out of my argument entirely. I apologize for the rough handling and misinterpretation.

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Interesting that you use the word "boundary". I would never have even thought of this as a "boundary", and I doubt most ExTJs would (at least before really learning to understand FPs), because for Te, facts are facts -- it's not personal. And if it is, then it shouldn't be. Usually when someone steps on one of my Fi boundaries, I end up registering it as "me being too sensitive", after the fact. Or I learn that they were right all along, and I'm embarrassed that 1) I ever held the previous opinion, 2) that I cared so much about that previous opinion, and 3) that I reacted so "immaturely" under pressure.

    Note the two types of projection here:

    1) projection by the ExTJ of all Fi as being like inferior Fi -- as mentioned by @fia and also by Naomi Quenk, who I cited earlier
    2) projection of dominant Te as INTENTIONALLY boundary-pushing and manipulative by various Fe and Fi users in this thread

    The first projection implies that all expression of feeling is "weak" or "immature", which is incorrect (and which ExTJs learn is incorrect with time and maturity). The second projection implies that ExTJs associate what they do with the feelings that will result from what they do, which is also incorrect. For example, fia's posts implied that ExTJs see their actions as manipulative and controversial/stress-inducing, and act on them anyway. Your post, if I understand it correctly, implies that ExTJs understand and respect the fact that your sense of values and the facts behind the values you hold are completely 100% intertwined -- when ExTJs, IME, hold their values so close to their chests, and so hidden away, that it becomes easier for them to separate facts from values (for better or worse). They see your reaction to trying to argue with you, and they don't necessarily think "I should leave this alone" -- they think "maybe if I go at this a different way, they won't get so offended". Because as I've mentioned earlier in the thread, the goal is to get you to change your mind. Still seeing this as an impersonal debate. I'd suspect that the ExTJs in the business world who go easier on you, do so because they have more experience with the Fe-style diplomacy that's so common in the business world. They've learned to self-censor, out of necessity.


    In fairness, I'm pretty sure a Te-dom is going to know what a Te-dom is thinking better than an Fi-dom would.
    Just quickly: Fia was more about projections and reactions. By contrast, I'm talking more about the contrast between immaturity and maturity. Immature versions of any personality type tend to be abrasive, whereas mature versions of those same types have the rough edges sanded off. So I'm just saying that the immature version of Te-Dom probably merits to some extent the bad things that get said about Te-Doms (bullying, etc.), whereas the mature version of Te-Dom tends to be more respectful of things like limits and personal boundaries. Just like the immature and mature versions of every other type.

  3. #173
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Just quickly: Fia was more about projections and reactions. By contrast, I'm talking more about the contrast between maturity and immaturity. Mature versions of any type tend to have the rough edges sanded off; whereas immature versions of any type tend to be abrasive. So I'm just saying that the immature version of Te-Dom probably merits all the bad things said about Te-Doms (bullying, etc.), whereas the mature version of Te-Dom tends to be more respectful of things like limits and personal boundaries. Just like the mature version of every other type.
    Just because you weren't talking about projecting, doesn't mean you weren't projecting as well. Read my post again.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Alright, fine. Zero-11 was right. You never said anything like those things, and no Te-Dom would ever say those things. Furthermore, I misinterpreted everything you said.

    I'm still happy to stand by the things that I said based on my own personal experience alone. I have a lot of experience of Te-Doms, including some good friends among them. Henceforth I'll make my arguments based on personal experience and leave you and your posts out of my argument entirely. I apologize for the rough handling and misinterpretation.
    ^ Missed this -- glad to see you changed your mind, and see that you projected/misinterpreted.
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  4. #174
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    projection is interesting we can accuse anyone of it whether or not it's true it allows us to ignore our blind spots and make it the other person's fault. not saying it is or isn't just think about it.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so
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  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Just because you weren't talking about projecting, doesn't mean you weren't projecting as well. Read my post again.

    Edit:

    ^ Missed this -- glad to see you changed your mind, and see that you projected/misinterpreted.
    As you please.

  6. #176
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Complete information: 2. The Extraverted Thinking Type (scroll down)
    The descriptions of every type include strengths and weaknesses, so these are consistently a tough read for all of the types. Jung also makes it clear that it varies between individuals. The description of the dominant function includes most of the positive explanation of each type. For my type the inferior Se is where most of the criticism lies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Jung
    ...Since feelings are the first to oppose and contradict [p. 438] the rigid intellectual formula, they are affected first this conscious inhibition, and upon them the most intense repression falls. No function can be entirely eliminated -- it can only be greatly distorted. In so far as feelings allow themselves to be arbitrarily shaped and subordinated, they have to support the intellectual conscious attitude and adapt themselves to its aims. Only to a certain degree, however, is this possible; a part of the feeling remains insubordinate, and therefore must be repressed. Should the repression succeed, it disappears from consciousness and proceeds to unfold a subconscious activity, which runs counter to conscious aims, even producing effects whose causation is a complete enigma to the individual. For example, conscious altruism, often of an extremely high order, may be crossed by a secret self-seeking, of which the individual is wholly unaware, and which impresses intrinsically unselfish actions with the stamp of selfishness. Purely ethical aims may lead the individual into critical situations, which sometimes have more than a semblance of being decided by quite other than ethical motives. There are guardians of public morals or voluntary rescue-workers who suddenly find themselves in deplorably compromising situations, or in dire need of rescue. Their resolve to save often leads them to employ means which only tend to precipitate what they most desire to avoid. There are extraverted idealists, whose desire to advance the salvation of man is so consuming that they will not shrink from any lying and dishonest means in the pursuit of their ideal. There are a few painful examples in science where investigators of the highest esteem, from a profound conviction of the truth and general validity of their formula, have not scrupled to falsify evidence in favour of their ideal. This is sanctioned by the formula; the end justifieth the means. Only an inferior feeling-function, operating seductively [p. 439] and unconsciously, could bring about such aberrations in otherwise reputable men.

    The inferiority of feeling in this type manifests itself also in other ways. In so far as it corresponds with the dominating positive formula, the conscious attitude becomes more or less impersonal, often, indeed, to such a degree that a very considerable wrong is done to personal interests. When the conscious attitude is extreme, all personal considerations recede from view, even those which concern the individual's own person. His health is neglected, his social position deteriorates, often the most vital interests of his family are violated -- they are wronged morally and financially, even their bodily health is made to suffer -- all in the service of the ideal. At all events personal sympathy with others must be impaired, unless they too chance to be in the service of the same formula. Hence it not infrequently happens that his immediate family circle, his own children for instance, only know such a father as a cruel tyrant, whilst the outer world resounds with the fame of his humanity. Not so much in spite of as because of the highly impersonal character of the conscious attitude, the unconscious feelings are highly personal and oversensitive, giving rise to certain secret prejudices, as, for instance, a decided readiness to misconstrue any objective opposition to his formula as personal ill-will, or a constant tendency to make negative suppositions regarding the qualities of others in order to invalidate their arguments beforehand-in defence, naturally, of his own susceptibility. As a result of this unconscious sensitiveness, his expression and tone frequently becomes sharp, pointed, aggressive, and insinuations multiply. The feelings have an untimely and halting character, which is always a mark of the inferior function. Hence arises a pronounced tendency to resentment. However generous the individual sacrifice [p. 440] to the intellectual goal may be, the feelings are correspondingly petty, suspicious, crossgrained, and conservative. Everything new that is not already contained formula is viewed through a veil of unconscious and is judged accordingly. It happened only in middle of last century that a certain physician, famed his humanitarianism, threatened to dismiss an assistant for daring to use a thermometer, because the formula decreed that fever shall be recognized by the pulse. There are, of course, a host of similar examples.
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  7. #177
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    To literally respond to the title I would estimate that an ENTJ would bully if they felt threatened and incapable of control but were in a position where authority was available to them.

    For example, a poor ENTJ as a manager would bully if a subordinate was questioning their procedures and they couldn't understand the criticism enough to control the change but knew the criticism was correct. Then they might bully to maintain the status quo so that they still felt on control of their environment.

    A good ENTJ manager may be seen as bullying due to the direct style they tend to have and how they almost lift and shift people to fit their design. However the ENTJ there would almost be oblivious to how they might be perceived as they themselves prefer straight talking and so if the person who felt bullied was cowed and didn't express their concerns in a direct manner then the ENTJ would be none the wiser.

    Bit thought tied but hopefully that makes English in the end.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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  8. #178
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    To literally respond to the title I would estimate that an ENTJ would bully if they felt threatened and incapable of control but were in a position where authority was available to them.

    For example, a poor ENTJ as a manager would bully if a subordinate was questioning their procedures and they couldn't understand the criticism enough to control the change but knew the criticism was correct. Then they might bully to maintain the status quo so that they still felt on control of their environment.

    A good ENTJ manager may be seen as bullying due to the direct style they tend to have and how they almost lift and shift people to fit their design. However the ENTJ there would almost be oblivious to how they might be perceived as they themselves prefer straight talking and so if the person who felt bullied was cowed and didn't express their concerns in a direct manner then the ENTJ would be none the wiser.

    Bit thought tied but hopefully that makes English in the end.

    This is a good example. I think an ENTJ would bully in other situations too though. I remember reading that ENTJ's suffer, more than any other type, displacement. Because they are so in "control" of their emotions, or FI inferior, they tend to hold back, when being yelled at work, for example, and tend to take it out on their loved ones. This is also the key characteristic of a narcissist. As an ENTJ I did not know myself that I displaced but I Do. A lot of people do but an ENTJ h as a particular prolbem with it at work.

    IT is because they see the logical weaknesses of emotion that they repress it...but emotion is needed for boundries. We need to whine sometimes in the places we think we should not and vice versa...without emotional devices we have no way to build emotional boundries. I've learned this but most entj's will never learn it and hence continue to scream and shout at their loved ones while they nestle the foot of their boss in hopes of that next salary jump - no joke eNTJ's make a lot of money.

    This is why they are known to have explosive anger.

    One mistake I might be making here is that most entj's on the net might actually just be narcissists misrepresenting real entj's....but who knows...I Can't tell from a message board interaction...all I know is that on other message boards, not here, I have come across entj's with explosive anger, who bully, and troll...and it is not just me who thinks so...

    go on the reddit forum for entj's and you will see other entj's there talking about forums and entj's bullies too.

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  9. #179
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    So is Carl Jung completely irrelevant to this discussion?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)
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  10. #180
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Speaking for myself, as well as other ENTJs I've known well, empathy is without question a learned skill for us. With Fi in the inferior position we are typically unaware of what we feel much less have an inkling as to the inner lives of those around us. This obviously creates problems that we become aware of quite early on. You learn very quickly that your own thresholds don't necessarily apply to others, and absent that as a starting point (and having a fairly strong inclination towards empiricism besides) the only way to understand how to deal with people is through experience.

    I remember from a pretty early age that I would do what I thought of as "boundary testing". When I was dealing with someone, especially on a more personal basis, I would do little "test" to figure out what were and were not an acceptable range of interactions with that person. To an outside observer, this could be construed as "fucking with someone", and on a certain level they're not incorrect. I admit to having done what I recognize now to be some pretty fucked up things to other folks more or less in the name of Science. Over time, however, I learned that when I did such and such a thing it would cause someone to become upset, or such and such another thing and they would be happy. Because people even now are effectively black boxes to me, I still do some tests to understand what kind of person I'm dealing with, and gather a rough approximation of what their individual thresholds might be. It's thankfully a bit more subtle, but it's still part of the interaction.
    To what extent to you think all of this applies to INTJs as well - or more specifically, what distinctions do you see between the kind of testing we do and the ENTJ variety, and the way empathy, or lack thereof, influences our interactions. People use the word "intimidating" in connection with INTJs from time to time, but I don't see "bullying" much. What is the distinction?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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