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  1. #161
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Strangely enough I just got chewed out by my ESTJ employer, but I don't take it personally. I've calibrated to her communication style, and see it as the "get the job done" style that @EJCC describes. A lot of people get offended by her because her style is extremely direct and involves pressure, but I've told my colleagues that her words don't mean the same thing that their's would. I defend her to others because I think she is focused on getting the job done and doesn't have that same sort of personal sensitivity with which to relate her communication style.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  2. #162
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Is that like the pop psych equivalent of going against a Sicilian when there's death on the line? :P
    It's like poking a bear with a really short pointed stick...
    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    I think the issue I take with this is the assumption that competition is necessarily a zero sum interaction, which seems to be pretty common with the Fe/Ti set. I don't see someone being "better than me" in some way or another to be threatening-- it's just life. If I'm in a collaborative setting, I want to know in what ways the people around me are more competent so that I can make sure I can leverage them as effectively as possible. Someone else's gifts can be enhancing to the whole if they're channeled properly.

    When I talk about pacing myself against the greats, the impetus is not so much "competition" as studying genius enhances my conception of what's possible. I do it because it feels good to stretch myself in that way.
    This pacing yourself... Sounds more internalised thinking to me. You sure you haven't developed past the limits of what's written about ENTJs and gone rogue?

    If so I'd look nervous. If anyone shouts stuff like "mutant" or "it must not breed" for God's sake don't try to reason with them... Just run!
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #163
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    It's like poking a bear with a really short pointed stick...
    Meow :3

    This pacing yourself... Sounds more internalised thinking to me. You sure you haven't developed past the limits of what's written about ENTJs and gone rogue?

    If so I'd look nervous. If anyone shouts stuff like "mutant" or "it must not breed" for God's sake don't try to reason with them... Just run!
    Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes.
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    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  4. #164
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    To answer the title of the thread: One kind of has to define bullying. Fe-Doms are sometimes considered to be the bullies of the MBTI if one defines bullying in terms of setting rules and being oppressive about them. Whereas Te-Doms can come across as bullying in terms of being mean and rolling over people to get what they want. Because of T.

    Anyway, this is about ENTJs. So let me take what Fia said as my starting point.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Both scenarios happen, and there can be a tendency for T-doms to have internal feelings they are not conscious of, so they can go into a hyper-"rational" sort of mode that becomes deeply passive aggressive. To push people's buttons, get the other person upset, and then maintain this attitude, of "calm down, you are irrational. Listen to my detached and accurate assumptions. I am right, you are wrong, but you are just too emotional to see the truth." [...]
    IMO, Te-doms are never going to see themselves this way. Te-Doms can say, "Well, it's just button-pushing and boundary-testing. It's nothing personal; we don't even feel emotions or care about you personally." But it's easy for non-Te-Doms to see Te-Doms as pushy and passive-aggressive from the outside. Button-pushing and boundary-testing doesn't happen in a vacuum. The person on the receiving end had something that the ENTJ wanted, and they got knocked down and steamrolled as a result. They got specifically targeted; as a result, it feels personal to them.

    Anyway. How to reconcile these two viewpoints: Boundary-testing vs. bullying and (passive-) agression? IMO, the difference lies in how well the Te-Dom recognizes and observes basic principles, limits, and personal boundaries.

    For example, I love Te-Doms who have spent their lives in the business/corporate world. They get it. You set a boundary, let them know that there are going to be repercussions if they cross that boundary, and they hear you. They back off and respect those limits that you set. The working world has conditioned them to respect certain principles. So the rest of us get to enjoy the brilliance of these particular Te-Doms without getting steamrolled on those few points or in those few areas that are really important to us.

    OTOH, I hate Te-Doms who haven't spent much time in the business/corporate world. I notice that they often don't respect other people's limits. You say to them, "Look, this thing is important to me. DON'T FUCK WITH IT!" And they respond, "Yes, I understand, that's important to you, I won't mess with it." But a week later, they're surreptitiously pushing at you, trying to get that thing from you. And if you challenge them on it, they'll just act like YOU'RE the one being paranoid, tell you they have no interest in that thing, and then a week later they'll try pushing at you again in an even more devious fashion.

    I think that the latter case is where Te-Doms can come off as passive-aggressive, devious, competitive, and all that other stuff. IOW, most or even all Te-Doms freely admit to button-pushing and boundary-testing. But it can turn infantile when it's done without limits and respect for the rights of others. At such times, this is where Te-Doms get seen in a negative light, even though they're just doing their Te-Dom thing.

    BTW, the same can be said for any other cognitive function. For example, I'm an INFP; personally I hate it when other INFPs act infantile and crusade for their own values as though no other ethics or value systems can possibly be valid except theirs. They get on their high horse, they shame other people, they bully people, and so on. So by extension this same principle (lack of respect for people's personal boundaries resulting in bullying) can apply to any other function as well.

    But the discussion here is about ENTJs, so I'm picking on them at the moment. Also, there's something about the nature of Te-Dom in particular (boundary-testing) which can arguably put Te-Doms directly at odds with the concept of respecting other people's principles, limits, and personal boundaries to a greater degree than some other functions.
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  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Whereas Te-Doms can come across as bullying in terms of being mean and rolling over people to get what they want. Because of T.
    thats not how it works

    It's nothing personal; we don't even feel emotions or care about you personally.
    No one with conscious Fi/Te would ever say this. Fi feels emotions Fe just executes them.

    "we don´t even feel emotions or care about you personally" is emotional language (it talks about them)

    Button-pushing and boundary-testing doesn't happen in a vacuum. The person on the receiving end had something that the ENTJ wanted, and they got knocked down and steamrolled as a result. They got specifically targeted; as a result, it feels personal to them.
    Thats Fe not Te.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero-11 View Post
    thats not how it works


    No one with conscious Fi/Te would ever say this. Fi feels emotions Fe just executes them.

    "we don´t even feel emotions or care about you personally" is emotional language (it talks about them)


    Thats Fe not Te.
    I was working in part from one of Wind Up Rex's posts, quoted below. I put my own spin on her thoughts, but she kinda did say those things.

    That's not to put Rex down in any way. She was blunt, and I respect that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Alright, so while my initial impulse was clearly to troll and disregard this thread, I'm opting to take a slightly more constructive approach in the name of good faith.

    Firstly, I want to make it clear that I'm neither apologizing nor defending ENTJs here, but I thought it might be interesting to share my experience and see if that sheds some light on this whole thing.

    Speaking for myself, as well as other ENTJs I've known well, empathy is without question a learned skill for us. With Fi in the inferior position we are typically unaware of what we feel much less have an inkling as to the inner lives of those around us. This obviously creates problems that we become aware of quite early on. You learn very quickly that your own thresholds don't necessarily apply to others, and absent that as a starting point (and having a fairly strong inclination towards empiricism besides) the only way to understand how to deal with people is through experience.

    I remember from a pretty early age that I would do what I thought of as "boundary testing". When I was dealing with someone, especially on a more personal basis, I would do little "test" to figure out what were and were not an acceptable range of interactions with that person. To an outside observer, this could be construed as "fucking with someone", and on a certain level they're not incorrect. I admit to having done what I recognize now to be some pretty fucked up things to other folks more or less in the name of Science. Over time, however, I learned that when I did such and such a thing it would cause someone to become upset, or such and such another thing and they would be happy. Because people even now are effectively black boxes to me, I still do some tests to understand what kind of person I'm dealing with, and gather a rough approximation of what their individual thresholds might be. It's thankfully a bit more subtle, but it's still part of the interaction.

    Now, obviously, there's two related points that go along with this basic idea. The first of those is that while most ENTJs engage in some form of boundary testing or another, they're not necessarily going to take responsibility for when things go too far and someone ends up genuinely hurt. The party line of the average ENTJ is, "Your feelings are not my responsibility." The logic there being regardless of what I've done to you, you can control the response that you have to that interaction, or (more to the point) you can put your big boy pants on and shelve your shit like I do. There's a lot of immaturity in that attitude, obviously. But the alternative is actual introspection and really owning not only the fact that your present way of doing business is sub-optimal not only for the other party but in how you deal with your own shit.

    ENTJs are not into the whole "being wrong" thing. We go to great lengths to have our shit together, and having to cop to a flaw...Well, let's just say that the whole notion of "falling on one's sword" was a house that baby Fi built.

    The second idea that I want to emphasize is that there's a kind of innocence when some ENTJs overstep. We're not geared towards people. We're geared towards effective problems solving. There are times when in our zeal to execute on the Prime Directive we will toss the baby right out with the bathwater, and be like, "Yeah, fuck that baby." And sleep pretty awesomely that night afterwards. Again, this goes to the idea that if you accept the premise that empathy is the province of inferior Fi, then going towards the place where we can perceive people (including ourselves) as intrinsically valuable feels like death.

    No, seriously.

    The best I can describe it, going towards Fi feels like you don't know what's going to happen, but you will in fact die if you allow yourself to be that vulnerable. Some get over the bitchassness and manage to anyways, but some never do. For me, my first step towards embracing that vulnerability was the recognition that regardless of how capable I might be, if I wasn't able to work with others I would never get anything done. Naturally, the problem with seeking to cultivate genuine empathy is that you may in fact succeed. I made the mistake of going full retard, and now have an abundance of feels. It is gross. I don't like to talk about it. But it is what it is. I will never be as naturally attuned to those around me as an NFP, nor have the innate poise and social confidence of an NFJ, but damned if I haven't found a greater depth, fulfillment and richness in my relationships with others as a result of learning to be more open.

    Either way, the point that I'm trying to make with sharing this with you is that ENTJs are coming from a much different place than most people. Our greatest strength ironically carries within it the seeds of our most self-destructive tendencies. We are not out to get you. Unfortunately, most of us don't really care too much about you one way or another. The best advice I can give to those who've had negative experiences with an ENTJ is to be direct and hold your ground when they're giving you a hard time. Ask them flat out what evidence they have for whatever bullshit aspersions they're casting your way. If they have grounds for what they're saying, then it gives them a chance to slow their roll, hear you out, and engage from a more reasonable place than one of YOU ARE RUINING EVERYTHING AND IF I DO NOT DESTROY YOU THEN TERRIBLE BUT HERETO UNKNOWN THINGS WILL OCCUR TO US ALL. And if they're just being dicks, then you basically calling on them for wasting everyone's time with bullshit will make them respect you. (ENTJs are basically all bratty, power bottoms, anyways. We like it when you knock us around a bit. It makes us feel secure and freer to let go and stuff. :3 Warning: Test this at your own hazard, tho...)

    Anyways, that's all I got. Hopefully this is helpful to someone.

  7. #167
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    I was working in part from one of Wind Up Rex's posts, quoted below. I put my own spin on her thoughts, but she kinda did say those things.

    That's not to put Rex down in any way. She was blunt, and I respect that.
    Your interpretation of my contribution and my actual contribution are not the same thing. In fact, you've misconstrued what I've said pretty badly at this point.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Your interpretation of my contribution and my actual contribution are not the same thing. In fact, you've misconstrued what I've said pretty badly at this point.
    As I said, I just used your words as a starting point; I put my own spin on things. I draw different conclusions based on my own experience of Te-Doms. I don't expect us to agree.

  9. #169
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    To answer the title of the thread: One kind of has to define bullying. Fe-Doms are sometimes considered to be the bullies of the MBTI if one defines bullying in terms of setting rules and being oppressive about them. Whereas Te-Doms can come across as bullying in terms of being mean and rolling over people to get what they want. Because of T.

    Anyway, this is about ENTJs. So let me take what Fia said as my starting point.



    IMO, Te-doms are never going to see themselves this way. Te-Doms can say, "Well, it's just button-pushing and boundary-testing. It's nothing personal; we don't even feel emotions or care about you personally." But it's easy for non-Te-Doms to see Te-Doms as pushy and passive-aggressive from the outside. Button-pushing and boundary-testing doesn't happen in a vacuum. The person on the receiving end had something that the ENTJ wanted, and they got knocked down and steamrolled as a result. They got specifically targeted; as a result, it feels personal to them.

    Anyway. How to reconcile these two viewpoints: Boundary-testing vs. bullying and (passive-) agression? IMO, the difference lies in how well the Te-Dom recognizes and observes basic principles, limits, and personal boundaries.

    For example, I love Te-Doms who have spent their lives in the business/corporate world. They get it. You set a boundary, let them know that there are going to be repercussions if they cross that boundary, and they hear you. They back off and respect those limits that you set. The working world has conditioned them to respect certain principles. So the rest of us get to enjoy the brilliance of these particular Te-Doms without getting steamrolled on those few points or in those few areas that are really important to us.

    OTOH, I hate Te-Doms who haven't spent much time in the business/corporate world. I notice that they often don't respect other people's limits. You say to them, "Look, this thing is important to me. DON'T FUCK WITH IT!" And they respond, "Yes, I understand, that's important to you, I won't mess with it." But a week later, they're surreptitiously pushing at you, trying to get that thing from you. And if you challenge them on it, they'll just act like YOU'RE the one being paranoid, tell you they have no interest in that thing, and then a week later they'll try pushing at you again in an even more devious fashion.

    I think that the latter case is where Te-Doms can come off as passive-aggressive, devious, competitive, and all that other stuff. IOW, most or even all Te-Doms freely admit to button-pushing and boundary-testing. But it can turn infantile when it's done without limits and respect for the rights of others. At such times, this is where Te-Doms get seen in a negative light, even though they're just doing their Te-Dom thing.

    BTW, the same can be said for any other cognitive function. For example, I'm an INFP; personally I hate it when other INFPs act infantile and crusade for their own values as though no other ethics or value systems can possibly be valid except theirs. They get on their high horse, they shame other people, they bully people, and so on. So by extension this same principle (lack of respect for people's personal boundaries resulting in bullying) can apply to any other function as well.

    But the discussion here is about ENTJs, so I'm picking on them at the moment. Also, there's something about the nature of Te-Dom in particular (boundary-testing) which can arguably put Te-Doms directly at odds with the concept of respecting other people's principles, limits, and personal boundaries to a greater degree than some other functions.
    Interesting that you use the word "boundary". I would never have even thought of this as a "boundary", and I doubt most ExTJs would (at least before really learning to understand FPs), because for Te, facts are facts -- it's not personal. And if it is, then it shouldn't be. Usually when someone steps on one of my Fi boundaries, I end up registering it as "me being too sensitive", after the fact. Or I learn that they were right all along, and I'm embarrassed that 1) I ever held the previous opinion, 2) that I cared so much about that previous opinion, and 3) that I reacted so "immaturely" under pressure.

    Note the two types of projection here:

    1) projection by the ExTJ of all Fi as being like inferior Fi -- as mentioned by @fia and also by Naomi Quenk, who I cited earlier
    2) projection of dominant Te as INTENTIONALLY boundary-pushing and manipulative by various Fe and Fi users in this thread

    The first projection implies that all expression of feeling is "weak" or "immature", which is incorrect (and which ExTJs learn is incorrect with time and maturity). The second projection implies that ExTJs associate what they do with the feelings that will result from what they do, which is also incorrect. For example, fia's posts implied that ExTJs see their actions as manipulative and controversial/stress-inducing, and act on them anyway. Your post, if I understand it correctly, implies that ExTJs understand and respect the fact that your sense of values and the facts behind the values you hold are completely 100% intertwined -- when ExTJs, IME, hold their values so close to their chests, and so hidden away, that it becomes easier for them to separate facts from values (for better or worse). They see your reaction to trying to argue with you, and they don't necessarily think "I should leave this alone" -- they think "maybe if I go at this a different way, they won't get so offended". Because as I've mentioned earlier in the thread, the goal is to get you to change your mind. Still seeing this as an impersonal debate. I'd suspect that the ExTJs in the business world who go easier on you, do so because they have more experience with the Fe-style diplomacy that's so common in the business world. They've learned to self-censor, out of necessity.

    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    As I said, I just used your words as a starting point; I put my own spin on things. I draw different conclusions based on my own experience of Te-Doms. I don't expect us to agree.
    In fairness, I'm pretty sure a Te-dom is going to know what a Te-dom is thinking better than an Fi-dom would.
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  10. #170
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    As I said, I just used your words as a starting point; I put my own spin on things. I draw different conclusions based on my own experience of Te-Doms. I don't expect us to agree.
    It's pretty unfair to say that you're in dialogue with anything I've said to this point if you didn't actually bother to read it, nor take it into consideration with respect to what you might have already experienced. You're welcome to any opinion you might have, but leave me out of it.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
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