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  1. #151
    Senior Member great_bay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    @Wind Up Rex - that was a really excellent description. Thank you for explaining those things. By coincidence, today I just saw an ENTJ leader (super successful and capable guy that I respect) say one of the most bone headed and insensitive things I've perhaps ever heard. I'm sure he offended a decent number of people in what was a fairly large audience. Maybe it makes it worse that he's from NYC I guess I have a hard time reconciling the ENTJ as a leader role with that kind of lack of empathy.

    I mean, I'm not super empathetic naturally but I at least try - like by learning about personality type - which was a method for compensating for this lack of natural empathy in an effort to understand people. Don't leaders need to inspire people? Can one do that when they openly say highly insensitive things that devalues others? I'm not saying all ENTJs do this but your comments back made me question the relationship between what you said and what this guy did today.

    I don't think he was a bully by the way. He just used poor judgment with what he said.
    This is the downfall of TJ users I noticed. They have no Fe. Although Fe is my inferior function, I know what other feel or not or if I'm well-liked.

  2. #152
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    What types of personalities do you think value controversy, competition, and pressure?
    I see this as enneagram-related. ExTJs may have strong values, but the values will depend on a lot of other factors. Assuming anything else may get you into "ESTJs value conformity" territory.

    Another thing that I probably should have put into my earlier post: I hate drama. I hate controversy. I want to get things done without anyone feeling anything negative about it. Not an ENTJ -- @Wind Up Rex 's description of ENTJs, which was fantastic, differed from your typical ESTJ description in a LOT of ways (including but not limited to the "button-pushing" in her first paragraph) -- so I obviously can't speak for ENTJs. But Te-dominance, at its core, is about getting shit done. Not about making people feel a particular way about it.

    I'm wondering if Fe-users perceive Te as INTENTIONALLY walking all over people's feelings, because they can't comprehend what it would be like to dismiss or ignore their feelings (which is what Te is much more likely to do).
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  3. #153
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    If we push people's buttons like that, it's accidental. We are by no means that manipulative. If we say "calm down, you're irrational, I'm right, you're wrong", IME it's insensitive at best, and dismissive at worst -- absolutely not with passive-aggressive intent. I honestly am not sure how that could be interpreted as passive-aggressive, because it's a blunt statement of fact. Anything else would be reading more into it than was intended.


    That last part is true. If we want to get things done, we want to use the most effective methods possible, and if diplomacy is the most effective, than so be it. That's practically Te in a nutshell. But the bolded is not something I have ever related to, and something I would never associate with ExTJs. The more I tell someone they're being irrational, the more likely it's because I think they need to change perspectives on something, because time after time they've proven to come to irrational conclusions. Maybe I'm frustrated with their irrationality. Maybe I'm losing my temper. But the goal is to get them to change their mind. The goal is not to meet my selfish needs (unless my selfish need is to get them to change their mind). If you've met someone who does the bolded, I suspect they have plenty of other problems that lend themselves to that, because I don't think that's type-related at all.

    Not to mention, on a more basic level:

    1) "feeling the things we cannot feel", when those feelings are negative, is something we most likely try to AVOID. Not something we'd want to create in others*. Naomi Quenk writes in her descriptions of Te-dominants/Fi inferiors that "fear of feeling" is one of the three core traits of that type's behavior under stress. We see excess emotion as threatening -- sometimes, if it's VERY strong, threatening to our entire existence. Quoting Quenk again: "In extreme instances, they may be terrified that they are going crazy." If we were seeking that out, it would be masochism.

    2) I don't really care about controlling others. If everything was done the right way, I'd be happy doing whatever I could to help behind the scenes. (As much as I hate the "middle manager" ESTJ stereotype, the core of it is true in my experience: we're good at leading AND at following. It all depends on how much we respect the rules, people, and institutions being followed.) You are not the first INFJ on this forum who has accused Te-doms of "needing to control others" -- and that has always confused me, because that has not been my experience with ENTJs or ESTJs, unless they were insecure/egotistical and/or VERY unhealthy type 8.

    *Caveat: I do hang out with some people because of their emotionality. But it's not to manipulate them, and it's not because I CAN'T feel those feelings otherwise. It's that I feel more free to express my emotions when I'm around them. There's a lot of pressure that comes with being seen as rational, cool, collected. People freak out when you lose your cool. I expect many Fe-doms feel a lot of that same pressure.


    This is true, and good advice, in my experience.
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  4. #154
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Te Hive Mind Powers Activate!
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  5. #155
    S Saiyan God Mace's Avatar
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    ESTJs bully; not authoritative ENTJs.

    Also, ESFJs humiliate.

    ENTJ punishes; so unless it's punishment the ENTJ doesn't actually bully anyone.

    It's an ESxJ thing.

  6. #156
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    ESTJs bully; not authoritative ENTJs.

    Also, ESFJs humiliate.

    ENTJ punishes; so unless it's punishment the ENTJ doesn't actually bully anyone.

    It's an ESxJ thing.
    Disagree. See my earlier post for why.

    Or read this: [ENTJ] The Form of the Inferior Function: Fi
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  7. #157
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Eh. That doesn't really ring true in my experience. I tend to seek to be excellent in whatever I do. For me, excellence is kind of an absolute rather than relative thing. If I were a musician, I'd be striving against Hendrix or Coltrane, not someone I'd consider a peer as that's frankly aiming too low. Generally speaking, I'm pretty much oblivious to those kinds of interactions and when I realize that someone is actively competing against me I find it to be pretty off-putting. It just seems really petty and gross.
    just so there's no misunderstanding, this part is in jest.

    You were doing so well with your understanding and then you decided to try to disagree with the definition set out by an INTP. Well bravery is valued...

    On a more serious note (ie defending my astute and blatantly objectively true definition ), I didn't mention what or whom they are competitive with. One competes against himself to achieve perfection and another against others to order the environment correctly. Both are Ts. The F side seems to compete more to achieve their goals as they are based on value and that has no hard definition. All seem to be competitive as soon as losing becomes a possibility. None wish to suffer defeat.

    In fact the one lesson I took from my sister (ENFJ) is "I may not win but I'll be damned if I'm going to lose".

    Most Ps I know will compete within a certain framework but outside of that they really seem uninterested in challenges, achieving and other euphemisms for competition.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #158
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    just so there's no misunderstanding, this part is in jest.

    You were doing so well with your understanding and then you decided to try to disagree with the definition set out by an INTP. Well bravery is valued...
    Is that like the pop psych equivalent of going against a Sicilian when there's death on the line? :P

    On a more serious note (ie defending my astute and blatantly objectively true definition ), I didn't mention what or whom they are competitive with. One competes against himself to achieve perfection and another against others to order the environment correctly. Both are Ts. The F side seems to compete more to achieve their goals as they are based on value and that has no hard definition. All seem to be competitive as soon as losing becomes a possibility. None wish to suffer defeat.

    In fact the one lesson I took from my sister (ENFJ) is "I may not win but I'll be damned if I'm going to lose".

    Most Ps I know will compete within a certain framework but outside of that they really seem uninterested in challenges, achieving and other euphemisms for competition.
    I think the issue I take with this is the assumption that competition is necessarily a zero sum interaction, which seems to be pretty common with the Fe/Ti set. I don't see someone being "better than me" in some way or another to be threatening-- it's just life. If I'm in a collaborative setting, I want to know in what ways the people around me are more competent so that I can make sure I can leverage them as effectively as possible. Someone else's gifts can be enhancing to the whole if they're channeled properly.

    When I talk about pacing myself against the greats, the impetus is not so much "competition" as studying genius enhances my conception of what's possible. I do it because it feels good to stretch myself in that way.
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  9. #159
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    1) "feeling the things we cannot feel", when those feelings are negative, is something we most likely try to AVOID. Not something we'd want to create in others*. Naomi Quenk writes in her descriptions of Te-dominants/Fi inferiors that "fear of feeling" is one of the three core traits of that type's behavior under stress. We see excess emotion as threatening -- sometimes, if it's VERY strong, threatening to our entire existence. Quoting Quenk again: "In extreme instances, they may be terrified that they are going crazy." If we were seeking that out, it would be masochism.
    Indeed.

    I don't think there's any particular basic emotion that I am incapable of feeling. I just may not feel it often or about very many things. And being around people who are emotional about something I can't relate to or that has no significance to me gets annoying after awhile.

    2) I don't really care about controlling others. If everything was done the right way, I'd be happy doing whatever I could to help behind the scenes. (As much as I hate the "middle manager" ESTJ stereotype, the core of it is true in my experience: we're good at leading AND at following. It all depends on how much we respect the rules, people, and institutions being followed.) You are not the first INFJ on this forum who has accused Te-doms of "needing to control others" -- and that has always confused me, because that has not been my experience with ENTJs or ESTJs, unless they were insecure/egotistical and/or VERY unhealthy type 8.
    Exactly. I care about things being done right and getting results. Ideally this would happen without me having to direct anybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by great_bay View Post
    This is the downfall of TJ users I noticed. They have no Fe. Although Fe is my inferior function, I know what other feel or not or if I'm well-liked.
    It's not that we are incapable of reading other people, it's that we frequently consider it to be irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I'm wondering if Fe-users perceive Te as INTENTIONALLY walking all over people's feelings, because they can't comprehend what it would be like to dismiss or ignore their feelings (which is what Te is much more likely to do).
    Probably. I think this is one of the reasons I have so much conflict with my ESFJ mom.
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  10. #160
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    @ Wind Up Rex and @EJCC
    I appreciated reading your posts and I don't make any statements intended to be directed personally, so know that I don't assume any of the negative statements about any specific individual unless they have exhibited those behaviors. I also used the term T-Dom to include the four types associated with that. I can't say what percentage of the time my negative observations occur, but they do occur and can explain those instances when T-doms bully others. I'm glad to read people pushing back against the negative statements because that means they are probably nice people who don't exhibit the negative traits that others clearly exhibit.

    I've been on both sides if the coin in these discussions, so I will emphasize that I support 100% the idea that it doesn't apply across the board. It is pretty awful the times it happens and the individuals who do bully have used the methods I describe. We can assign them other types, but they aren't all Feelers. Thinkers of various types also commit acts of bullying.

    Edit: It is also important to remember that Jung's concept of "Feeling" and "Thinking" was not about emotional responses, but more about how things are processed. There is some type of correlation between a more immediacy with emotion connected with the "Feeling" function, but it is measurable and clear that human beings all have emotional responses to their environment. We are also all capable of varying degrees of detachment, but it is more complex than simple awareness vs. non-awareness of specific emotions. Sociopaths feel zero empathy, but can have a great deal of theory of mind empathy to control and manipulate responses in others. You don't have to feel with a person to analyze and influence behaviors and emotional responses. Having affective empathy, to experience the same emotion as others, hampers the ability to manipulate the response of others because you then have to experience those emotions as well.

    Emotion are the same as any physiological or instinctual response. Do we process these with rationalistic thinking or value based thinking? There are strongly emotional T's, but it is more compartmentalized.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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