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  1. #141
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    @Xander

    J`s shape their Environment P´s adapt to it.

  2. #142
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero-11 View Post
    @Xander

    J`s shape their Environment P´s adapt to it.
    Precisely.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #143
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I see where your point but I actually think that's more typical of feelers, maybe a feeler who believes they are a thinker?

    I dont know, in any case its a bad strategy for communicating as you say, no one could surely be pleased with communication fails who is likely to give the matter any thought.
    There isn't a way to determine for certain because like usual it is a discussion based on experience and perception.

    In my experience, I am thinking about some rigorous intellectuals (high level scientist, one of whom was an advisor to the president) who are so fixated on idea space, abstract thought, rationalistic systems, that they become often unaware of their physical and emotional systems. When these systems go unregulated and unaddressed the results are chronic pain in the body and either occasional, extreme emotional outbursts that completely lose a grip on rationality and/or passive aggression. These extremely gifted rationalists had some very childish emotional outbursts, and one I heard of almost threw a chair in a meeting. I would have argued strongly against my position before encountering these individuals. I'm still in a bit of a state of shock and have had to recalibrate a great deal of my own assumptions about how human beings function and the extreme dichotomies that can exist. I'm trying to make sense of how and why this is the case. If you knew these individuals I don't think you could identify them as "Feelers" because they are more extremely rationalistic than your average "Thinker".

    I also know that there are strongly subjective and emotional people who could identify as "Thinkers" who more readily and consciously suppress their emotions, so these two outcomes are common in their behavior. My guess is that this is most likely amongst young men who don't value emotional and subjective systems, but want to be rationalistic and control of self.

    Every human being has an emotional system, instincts, chemical responses to stimuli, and subjective perspective. We have a strong assumption that emotion is categorized as "Feeler" (most likely because of the word association), but Jung's meaning of the term was not "emotion". He is talking about people who think in terms of values and subjective systems. It might be possible for a person to have a strong emotional system, but be a rationalist by nature. It is important to examine this assumption.

    We have a Western cultural norm that does not value emotion, especially in men. If a person is not fluent with managing their own emotional system, if they don't put the work into it to identify personal feelings, have strategies to deal with those emotion, and then practice applying those strategies, then the emotional system will not run efficiently or intentionally. I would say that any person, Feeler or Thinker, who does not put the awareness and effort into their own emotional system, is going to get unintended results which are most likely the uncontrolled outburst or passive aggression and denial of the emotional responses.

    In this discussion about ENTJs being the "bully", I could see it up for grabs with either any E--J or with any of the T types.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #144
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    That doesn't make sense. The most competitive people I know are all Js.
    My impression is that Ti competition is more of a game, and Te competition is more oriented towards external results. @Zero-11 you are one of the first Te's I've met that denies a love of competition. I realize you are a Ni-dom, so that can make the aux function much more varied than most people think. My aux-Fe is extremely atypical, so maybe you yourself do not fit the generalization about Te, but the larger group of Te's may actively enjoy competition.

    Edit: As an anecdote, I have a strongly J employer right now, who is an ESTJ, and she is the ideal example of someone who understands competitive process. Her life is devoted to identifying children with potential, and then working every detail of their little hands and every nuance of the classical repertoire to have them performing concertos and advanced sonatas at the age of 8-14. It is her skill and external focus that makes this possible. I'm in awe of what she accomplishes and see her method as the ideal of that path of training. She is skilled at putting pressure on people and has a strong mother vibe. She establishes a variety of competitions and assessments because the focus is external, detailed, pressured, etc. for the purpose of accomplishment.

    The trait I am addressing can be every bit as much admired as disdained. My brain is almost the opposite of those processes, so I can admire the outcome, but that intense, external, driven focus is like watching aliens terraform a planet.

    I suppose another way to determine this is to look at the various forums and see which ones are most competitive? INTJs can be competitive, but there is also a tendency towards politeness externally, and they are harder to define because more is hidden with the Ni-Fi inner world.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    you are one of the first Te's I've met that denies a love of competition. I realize you are a Ni-dom, so that can make the aux function much more varied than most people think. My aux-Fe is extremely atypical, so maybe you yourself do not fit the generalization about Te, but the larger group of Te's may actively enjoy competition.
    My ENTJ Accounting Teacher from Trade School wasn´t competitive either, I think our definitions of "competitive" are probably different.

    Te "competition" wouldn´t go against Fi personal well-being (it would just ensure that this state is able to live on) - Ti on the other hand is the exact opposite of it with its cold optimization.

  6. #146
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    It appears that Te-doms think that controversy, competition, pressure, etc. produces the best, most productive results. They are so completely lacking in Fe, that they can't realize this is only true for themselves and those like them. Some Te-doms have a tool kit that consists only of a hammer, or in some cases a sledge-hammer.
    This doesn't resonate.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Both scenarios happen, and there can be a tendency for T-doms to have internal feelings they are not conscious of, so they can go into a hyper-"rational" sort of mode that becomes deeply passive aggressive. To push people's buttons, get the other person upset, and then maintain this attitude, of "calm down, you are irrational. Listen to my detached and accurate assumptions. I am right, you are wrong, but you are just too emotional to see the truth."

    While there can certainly be scenarios where a statement like that is true, I've seen it so many times used passive aggressively. The more the words "objective", "logic", "you are too emotional", etc. are used, the more likely it is passive aggression. Because many T-doms struggle to connect with their own inner emotions and anger, they need to push others to feel the things they cannot feel, so that they can feel personal control over those unconscious emotions again. A smart T can learn the language patterns and style that is necessary for diplomatic communication. If a T-dom is upsetting people all the time, it limits communication, then it is time to learn new strategies.

    The problem is that many times when a T-dom does get outwardly emotional, there is no logic whatsoever to save them. I've lived with T's capable of levels of subjectivity that equal their objectivity. It was quite shocking to discover because you'd think logic to bridge somewhat into their emotional realm. I have also seen T-doms project this inner state of complete subjectivity onto "Feelers", by assuming that once the emotions start, reason has zero chance. People who are fluent in the subjective realm can have a greater capacity for reason while in a subjective state, although it is also true that F's are unlikely to achieve the state of pure objectivity that T's can achieve. Realize that Feelers navigate a realm that would seem to be in-between the more extreme, compartmentalized inner states of the "Thinker".

    Also, the world does not consist of measurable, concrete, indisputable facts. It is more complex, more subjective, and nuanced. To be skilled with logic and fact gathering does not make a person more correct in their analysis of reality.
    I think it would be valuable to say to you, @fia, that I find the perspective of a Feeler to be as valuable as another Thinker. You're absolutely right that you guys are equipped with a very different toolkit than we are, and are capable of picking up on things that are in our blindspot, or just never would pop up on the radar to begin with.

    However, I'm feeling that there's a lot of projection and a fundamental misunderstanding of ENTJs that's apparent in your post. It was actually your contributions that prompted me write my longer post. I bolded something in the above as an example of how your own Fe-guided lens can lead to assumptions that are no more than those. I feel pretty confident saying that the desire to "control emotions" or "control others" isn't really a Te thing, or at least not a conscious thing like it is with Fe users. I'm task-oriented, not people-oriented. If you're making a statement and I feel that it's not adding substantively to either the task at hand, or the overall thrust of the conversation, I will call you out on it. For most ENTJs, someone else's feelings are not inherently valuable unless they somehow enhance the bottom line. If they don't, you need to handle that shit on your own time and not waste mine with it.

    I think as someone who does claim to have greater empathy, you can always guide the conversation to more constructive places by working with the ENTJ where they're coming from, as oppose to your own normative terms of how they ought to relate. If you haven't noticed, that approach has not apparently gotten you very far in the past. Again, the subjective, the emotional and the interpersonal can all add valuable perspectives that we don't access so readily, making it harder for us to appreciate. Being able to connect your perspective to whatever our stated goals or interests are will have the garden variety ENTJ eating out of the palm of your hand almost immediately. We love to learn and new ideas are exciting to us (we're still NTs, afterall), but we're executers and tend to devalue "art for its own sake"-type thinking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    That doesn't make sense. The most competitive people I know are all Js.
    Eh. That doesn't really ring true in my experience. I tend to seek to be excellent in whatever I do. For me, excellence is kind of an absolute rather than relative thing. If I were a musician, I'd be striving against Hendrix or Coltrane, not someone I'd consider a peer as that's frankly aiming too low. Generally speaking, I'm pretty much oblivious to those kinds of interactions and when I realize that someone is actively competing against me I find it to be pretty off-putting. It just seems really petty and gross.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth
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  7. #147
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    my impression of entj's bullying another entj and telling him he's really an infj because somehow these entj's are psychic even though entj's don't believe in that sort of thing, technically.
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    edit: In this dramatic rendition the ENTJ bullies may actually have no mbti as shattered personalities with npd, being entirely one dimensional thereby having no access to their auxiliary function.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  8. #148
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    One way I explain being an entj is as follows.

    I will entertain the notion of superstition but I will never truly believe in it and in the same vain I can never truly believe in anything. So what others see as a sense of cold Machiavellian practicallity is actually the product of knowing that I do not know.

    For instance, I may know everything about astrology, I might entertain it, and study it as a system and try to apply it, to let's say, or let's say as a structure...because all systems are beautiful in their ability to be understood, but would I invest based on astrology? Would I chose someone to date based on astrology?

    Nay...the never. Nay the mr. never. I would concede however, that statistically it is possible and might be true in a different sense than horoscopes since there are quantum relations between the quantum of objects that are spaced out far distances, hence string theory....so I look in awe and wonder if generation is a product of a planet in our solar system and wonder how displacing a single planet by a mm would change things as in a gear shifted in a clock.

    The reason that I am open minded is because I have access to my intuition - imagination, and sensing - physical observation of details. I engage in art - intuition, and sensing - sports, to support my logical reasoning.

    Entj's who do not do this will always come across as bullies.

    For example, just because someone is an entj does not meant hat they do not play instruments. How many times have I Been told by entj's on message boards that playing an instrument makes you an infj?

    Numerous times...which means that they are a) either not entj's or b) operating at the maturity level of a 4 year. I come to find out many of these bullies have children and are probably in their 40's by their own admission and I can't help but feel bad for their children because these "entj's" assuming they are not pathological narcissists...somehow have procreated and contaminated the gene pool.

    Now some might think that my point here is random but is really direct and simple to follow...here is the way and the format of this post.

    First, I tell you what my subjective experience of an entj is like and how other's objectively respond.
    Then I give you an example regarding astrology and supersition.
    Then I discuss what an undeveloped entj is like after showing how an ENTJ might have outlier interests with regard to what message board bullies consider entj-like
    Then I Talk about how sad it is to be an entj bully

    All of it is relevant and centered on heinous experiences on message boards with ENTJ's ruthlessly teaming up and bullying others out of "their" message board....
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  9. #149
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Have to wonder how many ENTJs are actually ESTPs

  10. #150
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Both scenarios happen, and there can be a tendency for T-doms to have internal feelings they are not conscious of, so they can go into a hyper-"rational" sort of mode that becomes deeply passive aggressive. To push people's buttons, get the other person upset, and then maintain this attitude, of "calm down, you are irrational. Listen to my detached and accurate assumptions. I am right, you are wrong, but you are just too emotional to see the truth."
    If we push people's buttons like that, it's accidental. We are by no means that manipulative. If we say "calm down, you're irrational, I'm right, you're wrong", IME it's insensitive at best, and dismissive at worst -- absolutely not with passive-aggressive intent. I honestly am not sure how that could be interpreted as passive-aggressive, because it's a blunt statement of fact. Anything else would be reading more into it than was intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    While there can certainly be scenarios where a statement like that is true, I've seen it so many times used passive aggressively. The more the words "objective", "logic", "you are too emotional", etc. are used, the more likely it is passive aggression. Because many T-doms struggle to connect with their own inner emotions and anger, they need to push others to feel the things they cannot feel, so that they can feel personal control over those unconscious emotions again. A smart T can learn the language patterns and style that is necessary for diplomatic communication. If a T-dom is upsetting people all the time, it limits communication, then it is time to learn new strategies.
    That last part is true. If we want to get things done, we want to use the most effective methods possible, and if diplomacy is the most effective, than so be it. That's practically Te in a nutshell. But the bolded is not something I have ever related to, and something I would never associate with ExTJs. The more I tell someone they're being irrational, the more likely it's because I think they need to change perspectives on something, because time after time they've proven to come to irrational conclusions. Maybe I'm frustrated with their irrationality. Maybe I'm losing my temper. But the goal is to get them to change their mind. The goal is not to meet my selfish needs (unless my selfish need is to get them to change their mind). If you've met someone who does the bolded, I suspect they have plenty of other problems that lend themselves to that, because I don't think that's type-related at all.

    Not to mention, on a more basic level:

    1) "feeling the things we cannot feel", when those feelings are negative, is something we most likely try to AVOID. Not something we'd want to create in others*. Naomi Quenk writes in her descriptions of Te-dominants/Fi inferiors that "fear of feeling" is one of the three core traits of that type's behavior under stress. We see excess emotion as threatening -- sometimes, if it's VERY strong, threatening to our entire existence. Quoting Quenk again: "In extreme instances, they may be terrified that they are going crazy." If we were seeking that out, it would be masochism.

    2) I don't really care about controlling others. If everything was done the right way, I'd be happy doing whatever I could to help behind the scenes. (As much as I hate the "middle manager" ESTJ stereotype, the core of it is true in my experience: we're good at leading AND at following. It all depends on how much we respect the rules, people, and institutions being followed.) You are not the first INFJ on this forum who has accused Te-doms of "needing to control others" -- and that has always confused me, because that has not been my experience with ENTJs or ESTJs, unless they were insecure/egotistical and/or VERY unhealthy type 8.

    *Caveat: I do hang out with some people because of their emotionality. But it's not to manipulate them, and it's not because I CAN'T feel those feelings otherwise. It's that I feel more free to express my emotions when I'm around them. There's a lot of pressure that comes with being seen as rational, cool, collected. People freak out when you lose your cool. I expect many Fe-doms feel a lot of that same pressure.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    The problem is that many times when a T-dom does get outwardly emotional, there is no logic whatsoever to save them. I've lived with T's capable of levels of subjectivity that equal their objectivity. It was quite shocking to discover because you'd think logic to bridge somewhat into their emotional realm. I have also seen T-doms project this inner state of complete subjectivity onto "Feelers", by assuming that once the emotions start, reason has zero chance. People who are fluent in the subjective realm can have a greater capacity for reason while in a subjective state, although it is also true that F's are unlikely to achieve the state of pure objectivity that T's can achieve. Realize that Feelers navigate a realm that would seem to be in-between the more extreme, compartmentalized inner states of the "Thinker".
    This is true, and good advice, in my experience.
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