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  1. #131
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero-11 View Post
    wrong! but Fe/Ti users are subjectivists so maybe what you wrote isn´t what is really there
    Your post expresses much more of an absolute generalization than what I wrote. It also is expressing a sense of controversy with its opening "wrong!", which makes me wonder if it is an intentionally ironic humor?

    I said "it appears…" I am not speaking to motives. There certainly are a vast majority of people, at least in the culture I'm from, who think that external pressure produces the best results. I'm not even saying it is wrong. I think that very aggressive, external personalities blossom in external pressure, but internal, private, sensitive personalities are less likely to do this. Do you think Te-doms are the exception and value the gentlest and most non-controlling approaches available? Are they the ones that think it is more important to be noncompetitive, to let each person develop even at a slow pace and in ways that do not appear to produce any success? Do they value a non-structured approach of individualistic exploration that will never win an award and rarely earn an "A"?

    What types of personalities do you think value controversy, competition, and pressure?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  2. #132
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mychemicalkilljoy View Post
    Hmm... Maybe it isn't just about the type. A lot of factors come in to play like the environment they live in. I've noticed that some entjs feel incredibly weak deep down. I was in a relationship with one and I have to say, you guys are super cool! The one thing I will critique is that they don't like feeling vulnerable. They always like to be the strong ones and protect people. I've also noticed that most entjs get into relationships with "weaker" people so that they can "show them the ropes" and protect them. It is both sweet yet controlling, but if the partner is intuitive, they will sense the entjs need to be in control, and probably figure out that they too, just like everybody, is vulnerable. I'm sorry if this offends any one of you! Have a wonderful evening!
    Interesting, that's inferior Fi (feeling not good enough).

  3. #133
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Both scenarios happen, and there can be a tendency for T-doms to have internal feelings they are not conscious of, so they can go into a hyper-"rational" sort of mode that becomes deeply passive aggressive. To push people's buttons, get the other person upset, and then maintain this attitude, of "calm down, you are irrational. Listen to my detached and accurate assumptions. I am right, you are wrong, but you are just too emotional to see the truth."

    While there can certainly be scenarios where a statement like that is true, I've seen it so many times used passive aggressively. The more the words "objective", "logic", "you are too emotional", etc. are used, the more likely it is passive aggression. Because many T-doms struggle to connect with their own inner emotions and anger, they need to push others to feel the things they cannot feel, so that they can feel personal control over those unconscious emotions again. A smart T can learn the language patterns and style that is necessary for diplomatic communication. If a T-dom is upsetting people all the time, it limits communication, then it is time to learn new strategies.

    The problem is that many times when a T-dom does get outwardly emotional, there is no logic whatsoever to save them. I've lived with T's capable of levels of subjectivity that equal their objectivity. It was quite shocking to discover because you'd think logic to bridge somewhat into their emotional realm. I have also seen T-doms project this inner state of complete subjectivity onto "Feelers", by assuming that once the emotions start, reason has zero chance. People who are fluent in the subjective realm can have a greater capacity for reason while in a subjective state, although it is also true that F's are unlikely to achieve the state of pure objectivity that T's can achieve. Realize that Feelers navigate a realm that would seem to be in-between the more extreme, compartmentalized inner states of the "Thinker".

    Also, the world does not consist of measurable, concrete, indisputable facts. It is more complex, more subjective, and nuanced. To be skilled with logic and fact gathering does not make a person more correct in their analysis of reality.
    I see where your point but I actually think that's more typical of feelers, maybe a feeler who believes they are a thinker?

    I dont know, in any case its a bad strategy for communicating as you say, no one could surely be pleased with communication fails who is likely to give the matter any thought.
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  4. #134
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    I think Enneagram 8s are a lot more likely to bully than ENTJs. A lot of ENTJs would be 8s however.

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  5. #135
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    ENTJs are reputed to have a small cupboard somewhere in their being which contains a teddy bear that just wants a hug. Give that being reason to feel rejected and they probably will respond negatively. A negative ENTJ can easily bully... So can an ENFJ. Thinking about it an ISFJ can bully with the best given a powerful position and the illusion of authority.

    It's not limited by type but by personality.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #136
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Alright, so while my initial impulse was clearly to troll and disregard this thread, I'm opting to take a slightly more constructive approach in the name of good faith.

    Firstly, I want to make it clear that I'm neither apologizing nor defending ENTJs here, but I thought it might be interesting to share my experience and see if that sheds some light on this whole thing.

    Speaking for myself, as well as other ENTJs I've known well, empathy is without question a learned skill for us. With Fi in the inferior position we are typically unaware of what we feel much less have an inkling as to the inner lives of those around us. This obviously creates problems that we become aware of quite early on. You learn very quickly that your own thresholds don't necessarily apply to others, and absent that as a starting point (and having a fairly strong inclination towards empiricism besides) the only way to understand how to deal with people is through experience.

    I remember from a pretty early age that I would do what I thought of as "boundary testing". When I was dealing with someone, especially on a more personal basis, I would do little "test" to figure out what were and were not an acceptable range of interactions with that person. To an outside observer, this could be construed as "fucking with someone", and on a certain level they're not incorrect. I admit to having done what I recognize now to be some pretty fucked up things to other folks more or less in the name of Science. Over time, however, I learned that when I did such and such a thing it would cause someone to become upset, or such and such another thing and they would be happy. Because people even now are effectively black boxes to me, I still do some tests to understand what kind of person I'm dealing with, and gather a rough approximation of what their individual thresholds might be. It's thankfully a bit more subtle, but it's still part of the interaction.

    Now, obviously, there's two related points that go along with this basic idea. The first of those is that while most ENTJs engage in some form of boundary testing or another, they're not necessarily going to take responsibility for when things go too far and someone ends up genuinely hurt. The party line of the average ENTJ is, "Your feelings are not my responsibility." The logic there being regardless of what I've done to you, you can control the response that you have to that interaction, or (more to the point) you can put your big boy pants on and shelve your shit like I do. There's a lot of immaturity in that attitude, obviously. But the alternative is actual introspection and really owning not only the fact that your present way of doing business is sub-optimal not only for the other party but in how you deal with your own shit.

    ENTJs are not into the whole "being wrong" thing. We go to great lengths to have our shit together, and having to cop to a flaw...Well, let's just say that the whole notion of "falling on one's sword" was a house that baby Fi built.

    The second idea that I want to emphasize is that there's a kind of innocence when some ENTJs overstep. We're not geared towards people. We're geared towards effective problems solving. There are times when in our zeal to execute on the Prime Directive we will toss the baby right out with the bathwater, and be like, "Yeah, fuck that baby." And sleep pretty awesomely that night afterwards. Again, this goes to the idea that if you accept the premise that empathy is the province of inferior Fi, then going towards the place where we can perceive people (including ourselves) as intrinsically valuable feels like death.

    No, seriously.

    The best I can describe it, going towards Fi feels like you don't know what's going to happen, but you will in fact die if you allow yourself to be that vulnerable. Some get over the bitchassness and manage to anyways, but some never do. For me, my first step towards embracing that vulnerability was the recognition that regardless of how capable I might be, if I wasn't able to work with others I would never get anything done. Naturally, the problem with seeking to cultivate genuine empathy is that you may in fact succeed. I made the mistake of going full retard, and now have an abundance of feels. It is gross. I don't like to talk about it. But it is what it is. I will never be as naturally attuned to those around me as an NFP, nor have the innate poise and social confidence of an NFJ, but damned if I haven't found a greater depth, fulfillment and richness in my relationships with others as a result of learning to be more open.

    Either way, the point that I'm trying to make with sharing this with you is that ENTJs are coming from a much different place than most people. Our greatest strength ironically carries within it the seeds of our most self-destructive tendencies. We are not out to get you. Unfortunately, most of us don't really care too much about you one way or another. The best advice I can give to those who've had negative experiences with an ENTJ is to be direct and hold your ground when they're giving you a hard time. Ask them flat out what evidence they have for whatever bullshit aspersions they're casting your way. If they have grounds for what they're saying, then it gives them a chance to slow their roll, hear you out, and engage from a more reasonable place than one of YOU ARE RUINING EVERYTHING AND IF I DO NOT DESTROY YOU THEN TERRIBLE BUT HERETO UNKNOWN THINGS WILL OCCUR TO US ALL. And if they're just being dicks, then you basically calling on them for wasting everyone's time with bullshit will make them respect you. (ENTJs are basically all bratty, power bottoms, anyways. We like it when you knock us around a bit. It makes us feel secure and freer to let go and stuff. :3 Warning: Test this at your own hazard, tho...)

    Anyways, that's all I got. Hopefully this is helpful to someone.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth
    Likes Edgar, highlander, EJCC, Starry, Video and 1 others liked this post

  7. #137
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Wind up Rex is pretty much spot on about her ENTJ description.

    I'd like to think that I'm quite an ENTJ whisperer - considering the time I've spent with them, as well as my own overdeveloped Te, so here's a TL;DR version of what she said:

    You know those movies and shows about old time hard asses (like Braveheart or Spartacus), where you see these jacked guys punch each other in the face and then laugh about it after the fight is over? It's the same thing with ENTJs only the punches are verbal. Testing boundaries and throwing out truths in an insulting manner is a normal way of conversing for an ENTJ - so if you can handle the banter, the ENTJ will give you instant props.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  8. #138
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    @Wind Up Rex - that was a really excellent description. Thank you for explaining those things. By coincidence, today I just saw an ENTJ leader (super successful and capable guy that I respect) say one of the most bone headed and insensitive things I've perhaps ever heard. I'm sure he offended a decent number of people in what was a fairly large audience. Maybe it makes it worse that he's from NYC I guess I have a hard time reconciling the ENTJ as a leader role with that kind of lack of empathy.

    I mean, I'm not super empathetic naturally but I at least try - like by learning about personality type - which was a method for compensating for this lack of natural empathy in an effort to understand people. Don't leaders need to inspire people? Can one do that when they openly say highly insensitive things that devalues others? I'm not saying all ENTJs do this but your comments back made me question the relationship between what you said and what this guy did today.

    I don't think he was a bully by the way. He just used poor judgment with what he said.

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  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    What types of personalities do you think value controversy, competition, and pressure?
    Te as collective strength doesn´t strive for pressure and competition, Ti as personal strength on the other hand does. Personal - Collective, Universal is a far better description for E vs. I altough i´ve kinda abandonded this Dichotomy at the time as it is too subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I see where your point but I actually think that's more typical of feelers, maybe a feeler who believes they are a thinker?
    Thats exactly what I thought, well not exactly because of the -maybe-

  10. #140
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero-11 View Post
    Te as collective strength doesn´t strive for pressure and competition, Ti as personal strength on the other hand does.
    That doesn't make sense. The most competitive people I know are all Js.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
    Likes chubber liked this post

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