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  1. #1
    Senior Member Cypocalypse's Avatar
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    Default xNTP/xNTJ duality, and an issue of degression and evolution

    Just some ideas I'm trying to hypothesize about. I don't know if anyone here can relate to this, but I wanna point out some stuff.

    Uhmmmm....is there any INTP here who are possibly affected by a potential insecurity of being a second-rate INTJ/ENTJ? It could be triggered by....let's say, an actual argument with an xNTJ

    Think about it. Personally though, whenever I'm in a debate with someone about my character flaws, as an INTP, I use my NT logic. Usually, most of the people I argue with are SJs. For some reasons, I would always have faith that being the better out-of-the-box thinker, I can always out-reason an SJ for just showing something that he may not have thought of. It can be tiring, but based on personal experience, I can win arguments by having this INTP virtue.

    On the other hand, arguing with an xNTJ is an entirely different thing. Most xNTJs, being NTs themselves, know where my arguments are coming, and having a stronger J means it puts an INTPs P function at a disadvantage.

    TJs have an external validation (usually manifests in their achievements) and an INTP has a Ti (an inner affirmation) to use with, as a counter weapon.

    Before, what I do when arguing with a TJ was looking for areas in his life that he may have overlooked. A stronger J means something will always be missed out, while a stronger P would most likely take everything into account. (But I use it sparingly because that line of arguing can be below the belt). The difference is, a J's better external manifestation of his achievements can appear more powerful than whatever an INTP builds up in inner self by his Ti, and in this sense, the external impression that TJ is a better evolution than an xNTP can be quite a pressure.

    ____________

    I'm a young INTP of 26, and sometimes, I was thinking if it would have been better if I'm still a TJ. I would probably identify myself as a coerced xSTJ back then, until the system failed me, and I was put into a crossroad of needing to have an independent vision for myself. But first, I need to define first what I am, and chances are, I'm an innate INTP.

    An apparent shift to fully embracing my INTPness may have defined what I am, and it made me get to know myself better, but having lack of Ni means that I still have to set definitive goals.

    So does that mean a growth to an INTP means an augmentation of J values or do you think the notion of growth is purely subjective, and one cannot avoid the duality of shared pros and cons of whatever type of growth one may aspire for?

    For one, I was wondering if being a young INTP is unhealthy. That is, one can just augment his P function once he actually gets something done by his J function. If my hypothesis is correct, mature TJs augment their P function once they're done with their career goals and have finally settled.

    Or do you think these are just personality differences and the concept of growth is just a biased perspective that only gives rise to personality archetype elitism?

  2. #2
    Content. Content? DigitalMethod's Avatar
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    I'd love to give my opinion on the matter. But I'm not quite sure what the matter is...
    "The life of the individual has meaning only insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful."
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  3. #3
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    What does "degressed" mean?

  4. #4
    Senior Member Cypocalypse's Avatar
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    Sorry, I chose a wrong word. I was looking for something that may mean decrease in stature, or form. Something like that.

  5. #5
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    eh, one definition of digress is to stray...

    Cypocolypse: "diminished" might work...
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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  6. #6
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypocalypse View Post
    Just some ideas I'm trying to hypothesize about. I don't know if anyone here can relate to this, but I wanna point out some stuff.

    Uhmmmm....is there any INTP here who are possibly affected by a potential insecurity of being a second-rate INTJ/ENTJ? It could be triggered by....let's say, an actual argument with an xNTJ

    Think about it. Personally though, whenever I'm in a debate with someone about my character flaws, as an INTP, I use my NT logic. Usually, most of the people I argue with are SJs. For some reasons, I would always have faith that being the better out-of-the-box thinker, I can always out-reason an SJ for just showing something that he may not have thought of. It can be tiring, but based on personal experience, I can win arguments by having this INTP virtue.

    On the other hand, arguing with an xNTJ is an entirely different thing. Most xNTJs, being NTs themselves, know where my arguments are coming, and having a stronger J means it puts an INTPs P function at a disadvantage.

    TJs have an external validation (usually manifests in their achievements) and an INTP has a Ti (an inner affirmation) to use with, as a counter weapon.

    Before, what I do when arguing with a TJ was looking for areas in his life that he may have overlooked. A stronger J means something will always be missed out, while a stronger P would most likely take everything into account. (But I use it sparingly because that line of arguing can be below the belt). The difference is, a J's better external manifestation of his achievements can appear more powerful than whatever an INTP builds up in inner self by his Ti, and in this sense, the external impression that TJ is a better evolution than an xNTP can be quite a pressure.

    ____________

    I'm a young INTP of 26, and sometimes, I was thinking if it would have been better if I'm still a TJ. I would probably identify myself as a coerced xSTJ back then, until the system failed me, and I was put into a crossroad of needing to have an independent vision for myself. But first, I need to define first what I am, and chances are, I'm an innate INTP.

    An apparent shift to fully embracing my INTPness may have defined what I am, and it made me get to know myself better, but having lack of Ni means that I still have to set definitive goals.

    So does that mean a growth to an INTP means an augmentation of J values or do you think the notion of growth is purely subjective, and one cannot avoid the duality of shared pros and cons of whatever type of growth one may aspire for?

    For one, I was wondering if being a young INTP is unhealthy. That is, one can just augment his P function once he actually gets something done by his J function. If my hypothesis is correct, mature TJs augment their P function once they're done with their career goals and have finally settled.

    Or do you think these are just personality differences and the concept of growth is just a biased perspective that only gives rise to personality archetype elitism?
    You have the advantage over INTJ in an argument because you're T dominant.

    They will try to overpower you because they feel naturally superior, all you need to do is be sure in your own reasoning and you'll almost always triumph.

    Being an INTJ is never the best decision haha.
    wails from the crypt.
    Likes ravenclawrants liked this post

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypocalypse View Post
    whenever I'm in a debate with someone about my character flaws, as an INTP, I use my NT logic. Usually, most of the people I argue with are SJs. For some reasons, I would always have faith that being the better out-of-the-box thinker, I can always out-reason an SJ for just showing something that he may not have thought of. It can be tiring, but based on personal experience, I can win arguments by having this INTP virtue.
    SJ's and NTs communicate much differently so I don't see how anything could be accomplished. When I argue with my SJ parents I Know, for a Fact, using logical deduction and pointing out notable logical fallacies that they commit, that I am the one winning the argument, but, I'm told "shut up you're wrong, why do you have to go on about these things".

    On the other hand, arguing with an xNTJ is an entirely different thing. Most xNTJs, being NTs themselves, know where my arguments are coming, and having a stronger J means it puts an INTPs P function at a disadvantage.
    From what I understand, a J makes the N function stronger, while a P makes the T function stronger.

    The difference is, a J's better external manifestation of his achievements can appear more powerful than whatever an INTP builds up in inner self by his Ti, and in this sense, the external impression that TJ is a better evolution than an xNTP can be quite a pressure.
    Yes because TJ (specifically xSTJ) fits into the system that society has made, INTP doesn't.


    I'm a young INTP of 26, and sometimes, I was thinking if it would have been better if I'm still a TJ. I would probably identify myself as a coerced xSTJ back then, until the system failed me, and I was put into a crossroad of needing to have an independent vision for myself. But first, I need to define first what I am, and chances are, I'm an innate INTP.
    It depends on what you define as "better", would you rather be involved in the society and not question it, or would you rather be detached from society and point out its flaws?


    So does that mean a growth to an INTP means an augmentation of J values or do you think the notion of growth is purely subjective, and one cannot avoid the duality of shared pros and cons of whatever type of growth one may aspire for?
    If you try to grow your J function, you'll be losing part of your P, you can't be both.

    For one, I was wondering if being a young INTP is unhealthy. That is, one can just augment his P function once he actually gets something done by his J function. If my hypothesis is correct, mature TJs augment their P function once they're done with their career goals and have finally settled.
    I'm a younger INTP than you and I don't see myself having bright future unless I conform to what I hate with a passion.

    Or do you think these are just personality differences and the concept of growth is just a biased perspective that only gives rise to personality archetype elitism?
    This is what "Health" classes do, its an ESTJ run program. All semester during this class the activities, guest speakers, tv programs, posters on the walls, etc, were all designed By ESTJ's to try and make us into ESTJ's. The concept of growth Is a biased perspective created by people that see your traits as less suitable to society than theirs, you either conform or you don't.

  8. #8
    Content. Content? DigitalMethod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    You have the advantage over INTJ in an argument because you're T dominant.

    They will try to overpower you because they feel naturally superior, all you need to do is be sure in your own reasoning and you'll almost always triumph.

    Being an INTJ is never the best decision haha.
    "The life of the individual has meaning only insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful."
    - Albert Einstein

  9. #9
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    You have the advantage over INTJ in an argument because you're T dominant.

    They will try to overpower you because they feel naturally superior, all you need to do is be sure in your own reasoning and you'll almost always triumph.

    Being an INTJ is never the best decision haha.
    INTJ's will only overpower if they feel they are honestly 100% right. While INTJ's love to debate over reason, if they are healthy, they should be able to see your logic if presented in an appropriate manner, and then back your opinion. I know I do.

    I think you are just stereotyping INTJ's who are vocal and possibly under developed.

  10. #10
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post

    All you need to do is be sure in your own reasoning and you'll almost always triumph.
    Sorry but this works for debates against all types.

    And since I am strong J I prepare myself well for the debate.

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