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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayna View Post
    Just saw your an ESTP. My sister is too. She's able to have FWBS the way you are as well. I feel like in order for me to have an FWB the way you described one, I would have to do way too much compartmentalizing and really act outside of myself and it would result in me eventually getting hurt. For me an FWB, is someone that you see and have sex with whenever one of you has the "need", but it's not all you do, you hang out as well. The difference however, is that there is no real obligation to anything outside of the sex--so that means no commitment, no sacrifices, etc. You don't hang out as often as you would if you were in a relationship, and no sleepovers, meeting the parents, or other things that can blur the lines. Otherwise, I could see that your type of arrangement would easily transform(for me) into a situation where despite the fact that I'm not compatible I now want to be with him. There has to be clear parameters or things that define the FWB in a way that makes it very different from a relationship. Even then, just based on my one experience(which failed after the first time might I add lol) I think a lot of FWBS don't work. My sister is able to do them very well though. So perhaps it takes two very mature individuals to be handle it.
    I may catch shit for this, but I don't think women are programmed for FWBs. Biology and stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    I may catch shit for this, but I don't think women are programmed for FWBs. Biology and stuff.
    You might be surprised. Biology cuts both ways, and history is full of men who have left their wives . . . unsatisfied, for one reason or another.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hcalack View Post
    What's working in your favor for the moment is he can't tell the difference between your disdain and his sense of failure. He's imagining maybe I could have been more charming, said something in a better, been more active. What he perhaps doesn't know yet is while you probably do like aspects of this man's personality, you are in particular intolerant of his way of moving forward. He may work it out eventually. It's obscured, but when you write it all out as you have done here, then it's there to see. When he tries straightforward action, you suggest he could do it as something else. You don't like his straightforward actions. No matter how interested in the novel you are, you're looking for a man less ugly of spirit than he, someone who's beliefs are more familiar. The letter in particular is telling. He's supposed to read it, and since you gave him a month rather than an afternoon, you're also imagining he'll internalize all that information and it'll become part of the bedrock of your relationship. He will become more familiar to you because now he has all that basic information inside him, and then you can let him know how there's another way to view your history and how the relationship can be real and deep and dynamic. Unfortunately, if he's any kind of INTJ, he won't be interested in reverencing the letter as an important historical document. He's likely as intolerant of your way of moving forward as you are of his.

    I hate this thread so much.
    Hmm okay. The only thing that I'm intolerant about regarding the INTJ is the lack of communication and the passive aggressiveness that underlines it. And as I already mentioned within the thread, and as others have pointed out, it's not always only him, there have been many times where I've not communicated effectively either. But all that being said,in situations where I felt hurt, or upset with some action he did, in those situations I did speak up, I also attempted to seek clarity recently on the status. Unfortunately I have NEVER had this type of experience before with any man that I've dated so I was being honest when I explained that on here. It isn't about me wanting a man with more "spirits" than him. It's about me not knowing how to interact and deal with things effectively when it comes to him because he's not communicating in a way that I understand(by not speaking up but expecting me to pick up certain cues).

    Communication was never my strong suit--an ex of mine made that clear to me. So I'm not saying that I'm necessarily better than communication than him, but in situations where I hurt him or made him feel a type of way, I wanted him to speak up and let me know--which I do feel would have helped in certain situations.

    There are plenty of things that I love about him, that I have NOT found in other men. I haven't talked about those things, because up until this point, most of my rantings have been me trying to make sense of where things went wrong, and incidents where I feel there was wrong done between us(in some way). If the thread was about everything that went right, I would discuss many of the things that I do love about him, that caused me to feel the way I do about him. The lack of communication, and the passive aggresiveness(which I think probably can be chalked up to immaturity and not just in him, in me too) are the only things that I had problems with. So if there are 10 things that I love about him, and 2 things I don't, I'd say there isn't much disdain. I'm fixating on the "two things" because those two things, between us, led to where things are at now.

    Some of the things I've wrote that appear very negative about him, are also projection(honestly), yeah I'm irritated that he just couldn't say things to me, but I'm also equally frustrated that my actions are the reason that he couldn't. I didn't make him feel safe, because I treated him crappy, and so he doesn't communicate. And I would not be surprised if it's because he does not feel safe, that he says "no". I understand it and I accept it, and my role in it. Heck, I've already said several times in the thread, I sort of expect(and expected) him to be like hell no, I won't be your boyfriend.

    AS for what you said about the letter--haha you're wrong. The letter I wrote was not supposed to be some reverence or a foundation for a potential relationship. The reason I sent the letter, is because when it became obvious that he was beginning his usual silent treatment thing(when he's upset with me) I realized I couldn't do *that* anymore, something needed to give. And I knew that the reason it got to that point--was like I said above--because of some of the things I did to contribute to it. My dishonesty, the things I did to push him away and make him feel unsafe communicating with me, and me not being direct and clear enough about what I wanted when I had the opportunities. Since it was clear that he was giving me the "treatment" trying to talk about these things with him in person, or by phone, was not possible(since he was ignoring me lol) so I emailed him a letter.

    It was not meant to be a letter that made him gush over me and want to secure a relationship. It was a letter where I simply explained my actions(and lack thereof), apologized for hurting him, admitted to how I really felt, explained what I liked about him, and what I liked about *us* together and how those things are the exact reason I want to be with him... But as you saw with what I pasted on here, I let him know that I could not proceed with things as they were--be it as an FWB, pretending to be friends, etc. So if he was open to dating me then let me know, if he was not then let me know and I'll move on. It was not a letter meant to melt his heart, as much as it was, me letting him know where I stood and wanting a decision to be made to end the insanity of it all. I've read the letter and had other friends read it, and though I pasted some things on here that were gushy, the bulk of it was not.

    The timeline was not for him to internalize it and get gushy. If I was trying to get him to internalize it, then I wouldn't have started this thread, with frustration that he had not responded within a week of me writing it. Hello dude, I wanted him to answer sooner than the month. Why do you think I was pissed when he didn't respond right away? Haha. But really, when I gave him the timeline I just wanted to be fair to him and to not pressure him or confront him the way I normally do when I'm feeling a certain type of way.
    And if he is intolerant of my way of doing things, then that's fine--again if he says "no" I understand. I wouldn't be upset with him for not wanting to be with me at all. The letter was not meant to manipulate him in anyway.
    And for the record, I highly doubt that he feels a sense of failure in this. It's me who felt the failure, since I was obviously the one that brought it to his attention. In the letter I didn't accuse him of doing anything wrong at all, I laid the cards on the table and took all the blame since the majority of what went down was on me. So it's unlikely that after reading the letter he'll question where he failed. And I don't think he believes I have disdain for him at all. But I've already told him many times, that he needs to be direct with me, speak up, etc. He knows where I stand on that issue. He also knows how much I feel for him. Like I said, I might not do a good job of writing it out on this forum, but I know that he knows how I felt for him.

    And why do you hate this thread? You shouldn't let another person's problems bother you to the point of hatred.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    I may catch shit for this, but I don't think women are programmed for FWBs. Biology and stuff.
    Honestly most of the women I know who've done them, have caught feelings for the guy. the ONLY woman I know who has not is my sister. That girl has never had boyfriend, but has had plenty of FWBS. She doesn't blur the lines. How she does it, I'm not sure.

    But I think that there are men who get caught up too. It doesn't happen as often, but it happens.

    Honestly, I don't think women get as much benefits in an FWB--to the man it's great, to the woman(depending on who she is) it starts off great then goes downhill from there.

    On the opposite end, the same could be said about marriage. So many studies out there, that indicate that men are actually happier being married, and that single women are happier than married women. Perhaps men get more emotional benefits out of marriage, than women do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayna View Post
    Just saw your an ESTP. My sister is too. She's able to have FWBS the way you are as well. I feel like in order for me to have an FWB the way you described one, I would have to do way too much compartmentalizing and really act outside of myself and it would result in me eventually getting hurt. For me an FWB, is someone that you see and have sex with whenever one of you has the "need", but it's not all you do, you hang out as well. The difference however, is that there is no real obligation to anything outside of the sex--so that means no commitment, no sacrifices, etc. You don't hang out as often as you would if you were in a relationship, and no sleepovers, meeting the parents, or other things that can blur the lines. Otherwise, I could see that your type of arrangement would easily transform(for me) into a situation where despite the fact that I'm not compatible I now want to be with him. There has to be clear parameters or things that define the FWB in a way that makes it very different from a relationship. Even then, just based on my one experience(which failed after the first time might I add lol) I think a lot of FWBS don't work. My sister is able to do them very well though. So perhaps it takes two very mature individuals to be handle it.
    The way it works with me is that if I feel trapped in a commitment I cut the benefits and start distancing myself. I actualy test ISTP and I am very introverted, I just am more of a non-social ESTP. I love being out and about, doing things, anything. I dont watch TV, hell...watching tv turns into sex 90% of the time for me. To me there is a "Friendship" obligation as well as a sex...Thats why its Friends with benefits and not just fuck buddies. I am really good at blurring lines though...as I dont follow conventional rules or social standards...I follow myself and who I am. Being in introvert is what makes it more Friends With Benefits, I am generally not social enough to just go out and sleep with someone on a one-night stand. Wouldnt bother me to do it, but I really dont have the desire to go out and be social. Never have...It not only takes 2 mature individuals, it takes secure individuals, and people who know what they want. The closer you are to someone with a FWB the more you need to know what you want and thats what keeps it from going further. I am pretty open as in if I have a FWB and things really click then who knows it may turn into something more, I dont predefine where things will go.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    I may catch shit for this, but I don't think women are programmed for FWBs. Biology and stuff.
    Honestly, my take is that women go through life so unsatisfied that a half ass man would cause them to fall head over heels. We need more REAL men in this world. They have been trained to rationalize, look the other way when it comes to truly happy, and settle
    Im out, its been fun
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    The way it works with me is that if I feel trapped in a commitment I cut the benefits and start distancing myself. I actualy test ISTP and I am very introverted, I just am more of a non-social ESTP. I love being out and about, doing things, anything. I dont watch TV, hell...watching tv turns into sex 90% of the time for me. To me there is a "Friendship" obligation as well as a sex...Thats why its Friends with benefits and not just fuck buddies. I am really good at blurring lines though...as I dont follow conventional rules or social standards...I follow myself and who I am. Being in introvert is what makes it more Friends With Benefits, I am generally not social enough to just go out and sleep with someone on a one-night stand. Wouldnt bother me to do it, but I really dont have the desire to go out and be social. Never have...It not only takes 2 mature individuals, it takes secure individuals, and people who know what they want. The closer you are to someone with a FWB the more you need to know what you want and thats what keeps it from going further. I am pretty open as in if I have a FWB and things really click then who knows it may turn into something more, I dont predefine where things will go.
    I like that a lot(the bolded!) and actually you gave me some food for thought. One thing I will argue is that a person can be very secure and still find themselves developing feelings for someone that *logically* is not right for them, once they keep having good sex and hanging out together too often. It happens often. People are still human beings... A lot of people find it difficult to remove their emotions and feelings away from what some consider an intimate act. Sex can be complicated, relationships are complicated--and that includes friendships, sibling dynamics, the dynamics we have with our parents, and of course FWBS. But there are certainly people that are capable of maintaining an FWB without making it to be more. You're one of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rayna View Post
    Honestly most of the women I know who've done them, have caught feelings for the guy. the ONLY woman I know who has not is my sister. That girl has never had boyfriend, but has had plenty of FWBS. She doesn't blur the lines. How she does it, I'm not sure.

    But I think that there are men who get caught up too. It doesn't happen as often, but it happens.

    Honestly, I don't think women get as much benefits in an FWB--to the man it's great, to the woman(depending on who she is) it starts off great then goes downhill from there.

    On the opposite end, the same could be said about marriage. So many studies out there, that indicate that men are actually happier being married, and that single women are happier than married women. Perhaps men get more emotional benefits out of marriage, than women do.
    What it really takes for the normal women to have a friends with benefits is a half ass man who isnt to much of an asshole. Slightly less then what you went through....just enough to make it bearable. And people wonder why men are the way they are I prefer not to stay in half ass relationships(FWBs as I just described). It is more work, but honestly...100% worth it to have a real friend who will do anything for you and also has benefits.
    Im out, its been fun

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    What it really takes for the normal women to have a friends with benefits is a half ass man who isnt to much of an asshole. Slightly less then what you went through....just enough to make it bearable. And people wonder why men are the way they are I prefer not to stay in half ass relationships(FWBs as I just described). It is more work, but honestly...100% worth it to have a real friend who will do anything for you and also has benefits.
    Unfortunately it seems like a lot of FWBS involve one person that is either very selfish or an a** of some sort. Honestly when I asked that INTJ to be my FWB, I had something similar to what you said in mind. Yes we would have sex, but we would have fun, and hang out, and communicate and things would be cool between just like we were before--essentially friends, who enjoy each others company and have sex. He said yes, immediately, and the mistake I made was having an expectation that didn't match his. After he said yes, and after we did it, and we discussed it, I was still my open self when I texted him and told him I wanted to go at it again. I did not expect for him to be angry at me about it. Even before we were FWBS, we talked about sex often, made a lot of jokes, etc. It was never a big deal. Now all of the sudden, once we've had sex, and I talk about--asking for feedback, asking if we can meet and do it again, he lashes out at me. I'm no longer able to bring up sex again, or ask for it, or anything, but we can still hang out... It did actually hurt my feelings--I like being able to be open about that, and we were open about it before, I didn't understand why it became an issue once we did it. In fact I still don't really understand why me being so direct about it, made him angry. He had told me months before that when it comes to FWB or just sex only relationships he doesn't care about certain things, but if it's his girlfriend then he does care--the things I'm referring to are explicit and would make him look really bad, so I won't go into detail. But the last time I saw him, he definitely showed me the side of him that doesn't care(whereas the first time we were intimate he did not show me that side and was very caring, etc).

    . I wanted sex, without the complications, and with someone I deeply cared about, and without judgement, and whatnot and without changing the dynamics between us in a negative way. But it didn't work out that way. I don't know the motives of other people when they do FWBS, but it certainly sucks, once you realize that you aren't going to get anything out of it, or once you realize that the other person had different expectations. It was only later that I realized that the INTJ was insulted that I was placing too much emphasis on "sex", and felt as though I didn't care, and that he didn't really want the FWB, but was uncertain about what he wanted, he just didn't like feeling as though I was using him for sex, without any emotional ties... And I admit I compartmentalized my feelings in such a way that it came off that way, without meaning for it too. I was simply trying to enjoy sex without getting caught up--because I had that fear that I was just like the other female friends I had, where if I did not distance myself, I would end up catching feelings. Which ironically didn't matter, because the feelings were already there, and I was already caught up with him before I had sex with him, I was just in denial. But in the end, we just didn't have the same expectations, and we both got hurt.

    I think the problem is that maybe it's difficult to find someone who genuinely cares deeply about another person, and is secure enough to have an FWB without being selfish, an a-hole, having unrealistic expectations etc--the things that end up tainting the FWB. Like I said, it certainly happens, where the FWB works out perfectly, like it does in your case and in my sisters case. But in general if most people find FWBS don't work out(and a lot of people do) then perhaps the people who tend to gravitate toward FWBS typically are those that are already a bit selfish in the first place, or have certain issues/problems that makes it difficult to truly care for someone else, without it always leading to a commitment, or without damaging the friendship.

    Honestly I won't do another FWB again. Prior to the FWB, I had always maintained a stance that I would only have sex in a relationship(for many of the reasons I discussed above). I never did casual sex, including ONS. But I didn't feel ready for a relationship and after not having sex for two years, and meeting someone that I genuinely cared about and wanted to have sex with, I wanted to experiment and see what happened with it. I knew it was risky. I even told him I was afraid I would fall for him. Oddly enough, when I did the "do", my feelings for him remained the same. Nothing changed for me. But the dynamics changed between us. And not in a positive way. And it seems like this happens for a lot of people--women perhaps. The dynamics change, and the change doesn't tend to be a good one.

    I guess that's why I wouldn't do the FWB again--I think it really is difficult to have sex with a good friend, without changing the dynamics of the friendship in some way. Especially if it doesn't end well... What happens to the friendship then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rayna View Post
    Unfortunately it seems like a lot of FWBS involve one person that is either very selfish or an a** of some sort. Honestly when I asked that INTJ to be my FWB, I had something similar to what you said in mind. Yes we would have sex, but we would have fun, and hang out, and communicate and things would be cool between just like we were before--essentially friends, who enjoy each others company and have sex. He said yes, immediately, and the mistake I made was having an expectation that didn't match his. After he said yes, and after we did it, and we discussed it, I was still my open self when I texted him and told him I wanted to go at it again. I did not expect for him to be angry at me about it. Even before we were FWBS, we talked about sex often, made a lot of jokes, etc. It was never a big deal. Now all of the sudden, once we've had sex, and I talk about--asking for feedback, asking if we can meet and do it again, he lashes out at me. I'm no longer able to bring up sex again, or ask for it, or anything, but we can still hang out... It did actually hurt my feelings--I like being able to be open about that, and we were open about it before, I didn't understand why it became an issue once we did it. In fact I still don't really understand why me being so direct about it, made him angry. He had told me months before that when it comes to FWB or just sex only relationships he doesn't care about certain things, but if it's his girlfriend then he does care--the things I'm referring to are explicit and would make him look really bad, so I won't go into detail. But the last time I saw him, he definitely showed me the side of him that doesn't care(whereas the first time we were intimate he did not show me that side and was very caring, etc).

    . I wanted sex, without the complications, and with someone I deeply cared about, and without judgement, and whatnot and without changing the dynamics between us in a negative way. But it didn't work out that way. I don't know the motives of other people when they do FWBS, but it certainly sucks, once you realize that you aren't going to get anything out of it, or once you realize that the other person had different expectations. It was only later that I realized that the INTJ was insulted that I was placing too much emphasis on "sex", and felt as though I didn't care, and that he didn't really want the FWB, but was uncertain about what he wanted, he just didn't like feeling as though I was using him for sex, without any emotional ties... And I admit I compartmentalized my feelings in such a way that it came off that way, without meaning for it too. I was simply trying to enjoy sex without getting caught up--because I had that fear that I was just like the other female friends I had, where if I did not distance myself, I would end up catching feelings. Which ironically didn't matter, because the feelings were already there, and I was already caught up with him before I had sex with him, I was just in denial. But in the end, we just didn't have the same expectations, and we both got hurt.

    I think the problem is that maybe it's difficult to find someone who genuinely cares deeply about another person, and is secure enough to have an FWB without being selfish, an a-hole, having unrealistic expectations etc--the things that end up tainting the FWB. Like I said, it certainly happens, where the FWB works out perfectly, like it does in your case and in my sisters case. But in general if most people find FWBS don't work out(and a lot of people do) then perhaps the people who tend to gravitate toward FWBS typically are those that are already a bit selfish in the first place, or have certain issues/problems that makes it difficult to truly care for someone else, without it always leading to a commitment, or without damaging the friendship.

    Honestly I won't do another FWB again. Prior to the FWB, I had always maintained a stance that I would only have sex in a relationship(for many of the reasons I discussed above). I never did casual sex, including ONS. But I didn't feel ready for a relationship and after not having sex for two years, and meeting someone that I genuinely cared about and wanted to have sex with, I wanted to experiment and see what happened with it. I knew it was risky. I even told him I was afraid I would fall for him. Oddly enough, when I did the "do", my feelings for him remained the same. Nothing changed for me. But the dynamics changed between us. And not in a positive way. And it seems like this happens for a lot of people--women perhaps. The dynamics change, and the change doesn't tend to be a good one.

    I guess that's why I wouldn't do the FWB again--I think it really is difficult to have sex with a good friend, without changing the dynamics of the friendship in some way. Especially if it doesn't end well... What happens to the friendship then?
    It doesnt work out perfectly in my cases. It takes work, but the work is worth it to me. My ex-wife wanted to be friends with benefits after we split and it didnt work out and I ended up cutting out the sex. Even at a later point she propositioned me to go out on dates and be FWB and she didnt care who else I slept with, that lasted a day before I cut out the sex again. I am really selective with friends and have very high standards. Someone like a female version of him would have tripped my radar long before we even became friends.

    One FWB was an INFP, we got along really good, never really argued, joked all the time sexually, was very open with each other. We dated for a couple months, maybe 3 and she sensed something was up and we talked about it and we broke up dating wise. We continued to be really good friends afterward with benefits for well over a year. I eventually cut back on benefits because it seemed like she was getting to attached to me at one point and I started to distance myself because I started to feel like I couldnt look for that person I would want to marry.


    Dont give up on FWB, just be more selective in the future if you do decide to go that route. Dont run out of fear, but learn and grow so next time its better
    Im out, its been fun

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