[INTJ] Courtroom: INTJ female

[Totenkindly]

As a rule, if you lack a Sensing function visualising 3 dimensional images in your head - let alone translating them into something objective - can be difficult. It is a fair assumption to make that INFJs wouldn't be good visual artists because Ni doms are quite detached from the environment, and in extreme cases, our own bodies.

As an example: I don't "see" notes in my head, I hear them, so I can't accurately write music directly down onto paper like an SP composer might be able to. I have to play it out. This puts a lot of pressure on me being an adept performer and having knowledge of theory, orchestration, etc, otherwise my intution will be too far ahead of my learned knowledge to be of much use.

That's not what my response was addressing.
It was focused on the argument self-contained within that post and how it was stated.
All the things you say about yourself are likely true.

And since this now is becoming some kind of derail, I'm going to disappear.

 

[prplchknz]

As a rule, if you lack a strong Sensing function visualising 3 dimensional images in your head - let alone translating them into something objective - can be difficult. It is a fair assumption to make that INFJs wouldn't be good at creating lifelike visual images (i.e. concrete art) because Ni doms are quite detached from the environment, and in extreme cases, our own bodies. To paint somebody's face accurately, you need to have a mental picture of that person's face in mind.

As an example: I don't "see" notes in my head, I hear them, so I can't accurately write music directly down onto paper like an SP composer might be able to. I have to play it out. This puts a lot of pressure on me being an adept performer and having knowledge of theory, orchestration, etc, otherwise my intution will be too far ahead of my learned knowledge to be of much use.

which is the main reason I argue that I am not an ISFP

 

[á´…eparted]

As a rule, if you lack a strong Sensing function visualising 3 dimensional images in your head - let alone translating them into something objective - can be difficult. It is a fair assumption to make that INFJs wouldn't be good at creating lifelike visual images (i.e. concrete art) because Ni doms are quite detached from the environment, and in extreme cases, our own bodies. To paint somebody's face accurately, you need to have a mental picture of that person's face in mind.

To be completely blunt: What a crock of shit. My mother is an INFJ, went to school for illustration, and can paint/draw so well as to make them look like a photograph given the time.

Simply put:

 

[Kullervo]

To be completely blunt: What a crock of shit. My mother is an INFJ, went to school for illustration, and can paint/draw so well as to make them look like a photograph given the time.

Simply put:

Too blunt.

 

[Bush]

INTJs are rare, hard to be spoken of naturally, and yes I think so.
Because we’re we’re unable to express our selves, fearing to be misunderstood.
So a time comes in every INTJ’s life to try to express him/her self in the language of “people”

Notice when I’m talking about the other types I say “people”

So first thing came to my mind was to express the high standards I have..
By trying to have a high standard according to the common sense, community and even traditional rules.

But the question was on the difference between the male and female INTJ. So is it that females have it rougher than the other gender and INTJs have it rougher than the other types?

But, yeah. Having a rough time communicating isn't the sole domain of INTJs, nor do INTJs necessarily have trouble communicating.

I'm trying to ask questions about INTJ ladies, as I've been invited to do by the OP, and I'm not getting any answers.

 

[Destiny]

See, now you're kind of trampling on my Ti sensibilities:

- It's kind of silly IMO to say any single INFJ is incapable of being talented at visual arts; just because it's not as LIKELY (which i agree with) doesn't mean it's IMPOSSIBLE.

- My INFJ daughter actually is a decent visual artist in pen/pencil, and one of my INFJ friends at my last job worked with textiles and paints.

So I really hope that "NOT INFJ" is drawn from some other data, because otherwise this is a clear example of using type to limit someone's capabilities.

Perhaps I should be more precise in my post and say that it's the OP's need to use font to express herself in every post makes me think she might be ISFP.
Fi doms usually have this strong need to express themselves, based on the INFPs and ISFPs that I know in real life anyway.

Yes, there are some INFJs out there who can be talented at visual arts too, but if an INFJ turn to art to express themselves, it's more of a need to express their complex personal Ni visions rather than to express some personal Fi values. INFJs often have a difficult time expressing their complex personal visions in this world. So they start turning to art to express this side of them.
INFJ's art usually have a deeper symbolic meaning behind it. If an INFJ turn to art, they usually have this hidden desire to use their art to influence humanity in some ways (it can be as simple as trying to make people around them happy by looking at their artpiece, or it can be as complex as trying to promote world peace or some other messages through their art).
So I guess it all depends on the motivations, why they feel the need to turn to arts, what they are trying to express through their art etc.
From the OP's post, I get this feel from her that she feels misunderstood by people (which is a common enneagram 4 trait), and she uses art to express those feelings of hers. The way she approached art however is more of an Fi perspective rather than an Ni perspective, her art doesn't really have any symbolic meanings behind it other than the fact that she just wants to use those art to make people understand her deepest innermost feelings and personality, her art has nothing to do with some inner personal visions etc.

 

[Evo]

[MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION]
[MENTION=10808]andante[/MENTION]
[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION]
[MENTION=14015]Urarienev[/MENTION]

Seems familiar to you?

I haven't read much of the thread Chubs

What are you asking?

 

[Kullervo]

I haven't read much of the thread Chubs

What are you asking?

I think he is asking whether you can relate to OP. Do you see much of her affect and style in yourself? Does she seem like an NT woman?

 

[Evo]

I think he is asking whether you can relate to OP. Do you see much of her affect and style in yourself? Does she seem like an NT woman?

I figured, but i didn't want to assume anything.

I think I agree with Rasofy actually. But that's only my first impression, so who knows.

 

[Coriolis]

I disagree. As a male, you have to work, you have to slave away or you have no value to society, a partner and ultimately yourself.

Women are not bound to this. In reality, women have a lot more choice in how to live their lives than do men.

In this you are correct.

Women can choose to stay at home and raise children, or join the workforce. Nobody is supposed to judge them for what decision they make. Men by contrast don't have this choice.

Now here's where i differ from the fedora-wearers and MRAs. I don't think that men should have more choice. I think that women have too much. Many people don't understand that having too much choice/freedom is as crippling as having too little.

But here you go backwards. Why not increase choices for men rather than restrict them for women? In reality, most of us are prevented from having "too much choice" by factors far beyond tradition and gender. These include upbringing; socioeconomic status; geographic location; individual strengths, weaknesses, and inclinations; and constraints like needing to provide for younger siblings, etc. Reality already introduces plenty of limits. We don't need to create additional ones for anyone. (By this reasoning, blacks should have remained a slave class, lest they be "crippled" by having too much freedom.)

So why do the males have it easier?

The usual answer is that stereotypical INTJ behavior is aligned much more closely with socially accepted male behavior than female. As a result, women will get more flack than men for exhibiting the same traits and behaviors. I won't speak for other INTJs, male or female, but I honestly cannot be bothered. Perhaps that is why I don't feel I have experienced too much of this personally. On the other hand, my studies and career have kept me in primarily male circles, where I have been well received.

I.. think community rules are pretty narrow, trying to show us how we’re supposed to be.
We can’t deny those rules are much detailed when it comes to females.
Positive point in this: Women are taken more care off.
Negative point in this: women are required to work harder to be accepted.
​

The even more positive point is that, in many parts of the world at least, enforcement of these narrow rules is lax at best. This means women (and men) can throw caution to the winds and express, if not 100% of themselves all the time, at least 90% most of the time. (I'm not sure anyone gets to be 100% themselves always.) The corresponding negative is that too many people don't realize how much freedom they really do have. INTJs tend to be among those who do.
[MENTION=20044]chubber[/MENTION]: does this answer your (unstated) question?

 

[Mademoiselle]

Okay, let us recap what has happened, leaving out the meaningless parts:

1. You said: "Never talk about “Loneliness” in a forum has INTJ members…", which implies a special connection between loneliness or the talk thereof and INTJs.
2. I asked: "Why?", trying to find out what (you think) that connection is.
3. You offered no explanation that would even attempt to answer the question. But you asked: "Shall I explain more?", inviting me to continue my inquiry.
4. So I said: "Yes, please explain why one should 'never talk about “Loneliness” in a forum has INTJ members'. Please make sure your explanation entails the words 'INTJ(s)', 'talk', and 'always' or 'never'."
5. None of your replies since, however wordy and wise-sounding, have shed any light on the connection in question. I remain wondering.

Now I beg you to try. Hint: You are unlikely to succeed without the words 'INTJ(s)', 'talk', and 'always' or 'never'.

I Thank you for this instead of the guests who don’t know where we first begin this, ..​

INFJ lady complained about loneliness.
I told here Loneliness is better than being with people how misunderstood you.
This is a way I told her “don’t worry” “never mind” “there are worst than that”
Is a way I showed that I cared.
So no one shall talk about loneliness or other painful stuff.
Meaning, don’t even complain.
Because there are worst.
Be thankful you’re not being misunderstood.

Think about it.
It’s makes perfect sense to me.

Thank you for making me explain this so INFJs don’t get-hurt-because-they-felt-I-meant-something-bad.

and I heard you were an INTJ, why did you tell me to explain it as if I’d to an ISFJ?
I feel stupid right now, I was trying to tell you about my intentions so you don’t have to worry and think about the hidden meanings, I was trying to tell you:
No, I’m not putting any hate in my words.
But since you’re an INTJ, you understood everything from the beginning.
Thank you, for reacting to the words I said as another type.
To help me explain it, and you actually asked all the things the other types wanted.
That made me consider translating my words in every post.

However, allow me to do the same favour and invite you to explain what are you up to.
Because I think people think/feel we’re angrily arguing.​

Well, this thread was a huge bucket of cringe.

Why?​

INTJs are rare, hard to be spoken of naturally, and yes I think so.
Because we’re we’re unable to express our selves, fearing to be misunderstood.
So a time comes in every INTJ’s life to try to express him/her self in the language of “people”

Notice when I’m talking about the other types I say “people”

So first thing came to my mind was to express the high standards I have..
By trying to have a high standard according to the common sense, community and even traditional rules.


Some INTJs are very confrontational and will not hold back from speaking their mind. Not all INTJs are 5w6s. Cp6s and 8s (or types with cp6 or 8 fixes) in particular do not mince words. Men also tend to be more direct than women.

Unfortunately I have to agree with [MENTION=10757]Nicodemus[/MENTION] here. The INTJ, regardless of gender and Enneatype, is quite dismissive of societal expectations at a personal level. They may, like me, see the value of group structures at an intellectual level, but will remain conflicted about applying this knowledge to their personal lives due to a clash with their intution and emotional desires. You seem very orientated towards the community. There is nothing wrong with this - it just isn't a typical INTJ trait because our Feeling function is turned inward. INFJs and ISFJs by contrast...

Unfortunatly?
I see..
No I’m not getting feely about community.
I just do face palms, because I see lack of sense/thought.
Community… has a low quality test to accept you.
This damages INTJ results.
Glad to know there are more INTJs with different decisions, I believe culture affects that.
But,..
In my culture being girl is harder.
I was mistaken about yours.

​

C:​

But the question was on the difference between the male and female INTJ. So is it that females have it rougher than the other gender and INTJs have it rougher than the other types?

But, yeah. Having a rough time communicating isn't the sole domain of INTJs, nor do INTJs necessarily have trouble communicating.

I'm trying to ask questions about INTJ ladies, as I've been invited to do by the OP, and I'm not getting any answers.

I said: yes I think.​

In this you are correct.


But here you go backwards. Why not increase choices for men rather than restrict them for women? In reality, most of us are prevented from having "too much choice" by factors far beyond tradition and gender. These include upbringing; socioeconomic status; geographic location; individual strengths, weaknesses, and inclinations; and constraints like needing to provide for younger siblings, etc. Reality already introduces plenty of limits. We don't need to create additional ones for anyone. (By this reasoning, blacks should have remained a slave class, lest they be "crippled" by having too much freedom.)


The usual answer is that stereotypical INTJ behavior is aligned much more closely with socially accepted male behavior than female. As a result, women will get more flack than men for exhibiting the same traits and behaviors. I won't speak for other INTJs, male or female, but I honestly cannot be bothered. Perhaps that is why I don't feel I have experienced too much of this personally. On the other hand, my studies and career have kept me in primarily male circles, where I have been well received.


The even more positive point is that, in many parts of the world at least, enforcement of these narrow rules is lax at best. This means women (and men) can throw caution to the winds and express, if not 100% of themselves all the time, at least 90% most of the time. (I'm not sure anyone gets to be 100% themselves always.) The corresponding negative is that too many people don't realize how much freedom they really do have. INTJs tend to be among those who do.

[MENTION=20044]chubber[/MENTION]: does this answer your (unstated) question?

Of course I know what’s my limits, rights and responsibilities very well.
But the reaction of people is too wrong + I’m one, they’e a lot more. (numbers)
That I almost get the feeling of being the wrong one.
Fighting this feeling with logic waists my energy.
I always want the shorter and the more effective ways.
That’s one of the things I learnt in physics:
Every force takes the shortest distance to have the most effect.​

 

[OrangeAppled]

You might be on to something. I wonder how [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] would type her.

The "we" language reeks of Fe. I almost never notice IxFPs express themselves in that manner, at least not throughout a lengthy post that is supposed to be describing themselves.

Enneagram is probably 4, although it's so cliche it almost seems a joke.

I suppose any type can be an artist. Associating Se with visual art is a mistake, IMO. There are many Se types out there who have no eye for aesthetics. It's about manner of perceiving, where the focus is and what is considered most informative, not talents. NFs seem more drawn to conceptual art than SPs. The art world is way too pretentious to be filled mainly with ISFPs.

I don't know what type the OP is though. This thread is really long and neither the first nor last page indicates why it got this long. I would not have guessed INTJ for the OP though.

 

[Mademoiselle]

The "we" language reeks of Fe. I almost never notice IxFPs express themselves in that manner, at least not throughout a lengthy post that is supposed to be describing themselves.

Enneagram is probably 4, although it's so cliche it almost seems a joke.

I suppose any type can be an artist. Associating Se with visual art is a mistake, IMO. There are many Se types out there who have no eye for aesthetics. It's about manner of perceiving, where the focus is and what is considered most informative, not talents. NFs seem more drawn to conceptual art than SPs. The art world is way too pretentious to be filled mainly with ISFPs.

I don't know what type the OP is though. This thread is really long and neither the first nor last page indicates why it got this long. I would not have guessed INTJ for the OP though.

Can you tell why is it too long?​

 

[Nicodemus]

I Thank you for this instead of the guests who don’t know where we first begin this, ..

INFJ lady complained about loneliness.
I told here Loneliness is better than being with people how misunderstood you.
This is a way I told her “don’t worry” “never mind” “there are worst than that”
Is a way I showed that I cared.
So no one shall talk about loneliness or other painful stuff.
Meaning, don’t even complain.
Because there are worst.
Be thankful you’re not being misunderstood.

Think about it.
It’s makes perfect sense to me.

Thank you for making me explain this so INFJs don’t get-hurt-because-they-felt-I-meant-something-bad.

Ah, you think 'being misunderstood' = 'INTJ'? Well, it is a bit more complicated.

and I heard you were an INTJ, why did you tell me to explain it as if I’d to an ISFJ?

Because I wanted you to make sense of your statement, not talk to me as if I knew what you meant from the start.

However, allow me to do the same favour and invite you to explain what are you up to.
Because I think people think/feel we’re angrily arguing.

Educating the youth.

 

[Mademoiselle]

Ah, you think 'being misunderstood' = 'INTJ'? Well, it is a bit more complicated.

Yes, in short.​

Because I wanted you to make sense of your statement, not talk to me as if I knew what you meant from the start.

Why? Nice of you thought.
​

Educating the youth.

Good.​

 

[Nicodemus]

Why? Nice of you thought.

To show you where your error lies in your line of reasoning.

By the way, the type of the 'I am so misunderstood' people is INFP.

 

[Mademoiselle]

To show you where your error lies in your line of reasoning.

By the way, the type of the 'I am so misunderstood' people is INFP.

thanks.
I have an INFP dude who’s never misunderstood.
But I’m very misunderstood.
Or it’s just because I live around INFJs..?​

 

[Haven]

This thread fun in a Ni kind of way, I'm just gonna nod my head like it makes sense

 

[Mane]

This thread fun in a Ni kind of way, I'm just gonna nod my head like it makes sense

Out of all the hydra's heads that's the one you chose to feed?

 

[Mademoiselle]

I think there was a conversation going on about my type.
You may go to the right thread and talk about that.

Sorry, I was vague. I was asking if you've looked into types besides INTJ for yourself.



What do you think formatting accomplishes? What is expressed through font and alignment of the text that isn't achieved through your words?

Sorry for the late reply.
No, I don’t think of not being INTJ.

Me being INTJ.
Is not expressed verbally.
So as to communicate using a clear language.​

Women can choose to stay at home and raise children, or join the workforce. Nobody is supposed to judge them for what decision they make. Men by contrast don't have this choice.

Now here's where i differ from the fedora-wearers and MRAs. I don't think that men should have more choice. I think that women have too much. Many people don't understand that having too much choice/freedom is as crippling as having too little.

Sorry for the late reply, and no. This is not a reason.
On the other hand men search for women, ask women, women responds.
This way women can sometimes not have the chance to tell men they want them.
This is a win-win.​