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  1. #31
    Member Rampant's Avatar
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    It's tough to say. On the one hand, INTP are behind the scenes in interaction style which meshes well with the 9's disposition, and it's possible more INTPs are 9s than they realize due to them over-identifying with the intellectualism being Ti-dom can cause, and attributing this to being a 5. On the other hand, 5s also have "will" problems (they feel "no" is outside of them, not in their control) and can feel like the 9's fluidity is something they possess. But I would say a 5 to 9 mistyping is far less common than 9 to 5.

    I do think there are more INTP 9s than people expect.

  2. #32
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I think that if someone claims to be an INTP and 9, he is mistyped.
    IxxP are the most common types of 9s.

    So no.

    I suspect the issue is your understanding of the enneagram as how one processes things does not impact motivations/fears etc, there are trends however any combination is theoretically possible and in the specific scenario of INTP 9, it exists.

    The feeling function has nothing at all to do with enneagram 9, just as the thinking function is not connected with enneagram 5, stereotypes like that are what leads to mistyping.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yup.

    It's 9II.

    I'm pretty sure I know an ENTP 9, tho.
    Hi. Me too (and more than just me).

    Dunno about the introverted v ambivert thing, we're a withdrawn type so it can seem introvert-ish, on the surface we move away, however underneath we move towards and seek connections so can seem more expansive and open.


    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    9 screams F, more precisely(but not limited to) SFJ

    Here is a 9 describing himself;

    “I am aware of focusing on other people, wondering what they are like, how and where they live, etc. In a relationship with others, I often give up my own agenda in favor of the other person’s. I have to be on guard about giving in to other’s demands and discounting my own legitimate needs.”
    The wording of one 9 explaining their own take on their type is not a decent way to gain understanding on a type, and to say type 9 screams F shows you have no idea what the motivations of a 9 actually are. As a NT and a 9 I am not a unicorn, we exist, hell the only NT 9 combination I haven't seen is ENTJ 9.

  3. #33
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    IxxP are the most common types of 9s.

    So no.

    I suspect the issue is your understanding of the enneagram as how one processes things does not impact motivations/fears etc, there are trends however any combination is theoretically possible and in the specific scenario of INTP 9, it exists.

    The feeling function has nothing at all to do with enneagram 9, just as the thinking function is not connected with enneagram 5, stereotypes like that are what leads to mistyping.
    I guess you know better than the guys at enneagram institute :

    The personality type Nine corresponds to Jung's introverted sensation type.

    The basis of their orientation to the world is thinking; personality type Five corresponds to Jung's introverted thinking type.
    And its not only this, i explained reasons in much depth on this topic and you can read what i said earlier, i cba to write it again.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  4. #34
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I guess you know better than the guys at enneagram institute :
    Attempts to link enneagram to cognitive functions is a concept that does not cross over into reality, I do not agree with the options that Jung or Naranjo offer even if I can appreciate why they link them. MBTI is like the hardware, it gives you the cognitive functions and how things are processed, Enneagram is like the software, it gives the motivations that lead to behaviours, they are two different things.

    If your main/sole source of understanding is the Enneagram Institute, then that's your issue, I do not consider it a poor resource for what it is, however it is pretty surface. My suggestion if you are interested in understanding the system is to get some Palmer, Maitri or Naranjo, hell even some Riso and Hudson would give a better base than EI. Reading type descriptions on enneagram is like using MBTI without cognitive functions, it's pretty words with no reasons for why they are put together as they are, enneagram is about the motivations and fears.

    "Head type" is not synonymous with thinker, the wording is probably what trips you up, but basic math should show you there is a problem here; MBTI is divided between T and F, enneagram has head, heart and gut, they are not supposed to correlate or no one would be a gut type. Head types have a common issue of anxiety, something often precipitated by overthinking, however there are plenty of ExFP 7s out there so it's clearly not about having a dom/aux thinking function. Meanwhile ENTJs with their Te lead are commonly 8s, a gut type. It really should be simple to see your basic premise is flawed.

    A NT who is a 9 would look pretty different to one who is a 5, about the only cross-over is both are withdrawn types. Your average INTP stereotype would be an enneagram 5 though as it is most common.

  5. #35
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Attempts to link enneagram to cognitive functions is a concept that does not cross over into reality, I do not agree with the options that Jung or Naranjo offer even if I can appreciate why they link them. MBTI is like the hardware, it gives you the cognitive functions and how things are processed, Enneagram is like the software, it gives the motivations that lead to behaviours, they are two different things.

    If your main/sole source of understanding is the Enneagram Institute, then that's your issue, I do not consider it a poor resource for what it is, however it is pretty surface. My suggestion if you are interested in understanding the system is to get some Palmer, Maitri or Naranjo, hell even some Riso and Hudson would give a better base than EI. Reading type descriptions on enneagram is like using MBTI without cognitive functions, it's pretty words with no reasons for why they are put together as they are, enneagram is about the motivations and fears.

    "Head type" is not synonymous with thinker, the wording is probably what trips you up, but basic math should show you there is a problem here; MBTI is divided between T and F, enneagram has head, heart and gut, they are not supposed to correlate or no one would be a gut type. Head types have a common issue of anxiety, something often precipitated by overthinking, however there are plenty of ExFP 7s out there so it's clearly not about having a dom/aux thinking function. Meanwhile ENTJs with their Te lead are commonly 8s, a gut type. It really should be simple to see your basic premise is flawed.

    A NT who is a 9 would look pretty different to one who is a 5, about the only cross-over is both are withdrawn types. Your average INTP stereotype would be an enneagram 5 though as it is most common.
    My main/sole source is not enneagram institutes website.

    You say that you are 9 and you say that you know much about enneagram. It would be interesting to hear what you have to say about 9 as a core type, i dont need a long description, but some of the key points that say what sets people with their core type of 9 apart from others and some key points about the type. And i dont mean general 9 type description, i mean 9 as a core/basic/whatever type.
    Then i can tell you how/why it doesent fit INTP if it doesent and maybe tell you some key points about INTPs. And yes, i will check what other 9 profiles say about the stuff that you are saying just to make sure that you arent trying to give a biased view of it :P
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  6. #36
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    My main/sole source is not enneagram institutes website.

    You say that you are 9 and you say that you know much about enneagram. It would be interesting to hear what you have to say about 9 as a core type, i dont need a long description, but some of the key points that say what sets people with their core type of 9 apart from others and some key points about the type. And i dont mean general 9 type description, i mean 9 as a core/basic/whatever type.
    Then i can tell you how/why it doesent fit INTP if it doesent and maybe tell you some key points about INTPs. And yes, i will check what other 9 profiles say about the stuff that you are saying just to make sure that you arent trying to give a biased view of it :P
    At the core of any type is the Holy idea, for 9s it's Holy Love, the message in childhood is that love is conditional that they are not intrinsically loveable, they learn that it's easier to give up their own needs and blend into the background to keep connections. They fall asleep to their own needs, numb them out and withdraw into their own space (physically or mentally). On the surface 9s are agreeable, however it's not true agreement, it's about not knowing or wanting to have their own stance, they can naturally see all sides of a debate and see the validity in each so in the absence of their own opinion will drift along while trying to make up their own mind. 9s tend to know better what they do not agree with, as a core anger type when you hit a 9s resistance it will be like iron, even while appearing friendly and agreeable on the surface they are set and nothing can move them, when a 9 does allow their anger to rise it often expresses according to their wing (1 judgmental or 8 rage). 9s seek independence and autonomy however can struggle to be assertive about those needs like a 1 or 8 can so can repress these needs by retreating within themselves to fantasy. Not really sure what you're looking for so that'll do.

    I am ofc interested in how you believe Ti-Ne cannot work with 9, seeing as I'm Ne-Ti and most definitely 9 and have met INTPs who identify that way as well (typically after mistyping as 5), the differences between them and INTPs who are 5s is marked however the TiNe is there.

    If the profiles you're looking at are online websites, again I say this is your issue, EI is one of the better ones but they are all substandard when wanting to get at the guts of enneagram.

  7. #37
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    I will add that my belief with MBTI & Enneagram is that MBTI is inborn, it just is, there are no patterns to be seen with parents types leading to certain common types for their offspring. Enneagram however is something that is caused by a number of environmental things, and includes the childs MBTI, there are patterns that can be seen.

    When things are average and okay in the environment, the child isn't sick, abused or neglected in someway, there are no hardships or expectations (good or bad) beyond normal then the average INTP would develop into a 5, it is, I believe, the reason most INTPs are 5s, the combination gels easily. Just as the average ENTP would develop into a 7. I'll continue with ENTPs here now as I know it better... If an ENTP child is shown that being focused and achieving things is of great value and will show them love then it's not a big jump to develop into a 3, it's a common enough combo, if they are tasked with great responsibility and pushed into taking charge of things then 8 can develop. Maybe they experience death up close or something that makes security of major concern so 6 is developed.

    9 plus ENTP is not a common combination and as such requires something bigger to happen in childhood for an ENTP to develop that way. As a young child my mother would have labelled me 7 however at a certain point I learned that it was not okay to be myself, that I had to be who others would accept on the surface and retreat within while letting go of my own needs replacing them with anger at my core that would be suppressed, anger at not being able to be myself. It isn't as large of a jump for an INTP to develop into 9 however there would be patterns of what leads there, often relating to parents having split focus so the child blends into the background, something like a high-needs sibling that requires the attention could do it.

  8. #38
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    I will add that my belief with MBTI & Enneagram is that MBTI is inborn, it just is, there are no patterns to be seen with parents types leading to certain common types for their offspring. Enneagram however is something that is caused by a number of environmental things, and includes the childs MBTI, there are patterns that can be seen.
    Im glad you added this because now i can see where the problem is. I think that people are born with enneagram type(just like they are born with MBTI type, or at least with dominant function) and that this enneagram type is the core type from which you develop other e types in you(but the core remains the same whether or not people are able to see it in themselves as this core type might get repressed to quite the degree and therefore work from what jung called shadow, the difference then is that now what defines you the most works from the unconscious and the persons persona tries to get away from it as it doesent suit the needs of the external world, or so the persons sees it as). Some people start to over identify with some of these developed types instead of core type due to some life circumstances. Im not disagreeing that an INTP couldnt develop 9 in them enough to identify with that type, what im disagreeing is that this could be the core type.

    And a quote from hudsons and risos book 'Discovering Your Personality Type: The Essential Introduction to the Enneagram' page 199-200: "What needs to be said right away in any discussion of parenting is that parent do not create a childs personality type. All enneagram teachers and researchers agree that personality type is built on temperament(which imo could be measured with MBTI for example) and that, in ways we dont fully understand, this is inborn. A child comes into the world with his or her personality type already determined with prenatal events, although we do not know what all of these are. ... This is not to say that early family conditions and parental influences are not important: far from it. While they do not cause type, they highly influence how emotionally healthy or unhealthy a child becomes. A child that is fortunate enough to be born into a family of well-balanced parents will start life as a relatively healthy example of his or her type. Conversely, a child who is born into a relatively dysfunctional family will have to close down his natural openness, spontaneity, and vitality and need to erect defenses against the various forms of violation thats exists in the family."

    I didnt even have to read what the enneagram professionals say about this before coming to a conclusion about this, because everyone who has read enough of developmental psychology will see this as obvious.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  9. #39
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Im glad you added this because now i can see where the problem is. I think that people are born with enneagram type(just like they are born with MBTI type, or at least with dominant function) and that this enneagram type is the core type from which you develop other e types in you(but the core remains the same whether or not people are able to see it in themselves as this core type might get repressed to quite the degree and therefore work from what jung called shadow, the difference then is that now what defines you the most works from the unconscious and the persons persona tries to get away from it as it doesent suit the needs of the external world, or so the persons sees it as). Some people start to over identify with some of these developed types instead of core type due to some life circumstances. Im not disagreeing that an INTP couldnt develop 9 in them enough to identify with that type, what im disagreeing is that this could be the core type.

    And a quote from hudsons and risos book 'Discovering Your Personality Type: The Essential Introduction to the Enneagram' page 199-200: "What needs to be said right away in any discussion of parenting is that parent do not create a childs personality type. All enneagram teachers and researchers agree that personality type is built on temperament(which imo could be measured with MBTI for example) and that, in ways we dont fully understand, this is inborn. A child comes into the world with his or her personality type already determined with prenatal events, although we do not know what all of these are. ... This is not to say that early family conditions and parental influences are not important: far from it. While they do not cause type, they highly influence how emotionally healthy or unhealthy a child becomes. A child that is fortunate enough to be born into a family of well-balanced parents will start life as a relatively healthy example of his or her type. Conversely, a child who is born into a relatively dysfunctional family will have to close down his natural openness, spontaneity, and vitality and need to erect defenses against the various forms of violation thats exists in the family."

    I didnt even have to read what the enneagram professionals say about this before coming to a conclusion about this, because everyone who has read enough of developmental psychology will see this as obvious.
    Many Enneagram teachers delve into childhood influences on enneagram. The expressed view that I've read and consider most valid is that childhood experience will help shape enneagram, inborn MBTI is something I consider a large factor but it cannot count for everything. The pattern for 9s is a common occurrence of one parent being a 9, the other being a stronger or overbearing type, the child not feeling able to stand up to the latter while relating to the former, when written about, the MBTI of a child isn't brought into the discussion yet it is an observable pattern.

    Regardless, the crossover from MBTI to Enneagram is not direct, if one specific MBTI type is supposed to correlate to a specific Ennea-type, how would you account for 16 MBTI types, and 9 enneagrams (or 18 if you count different wings as different types)? Clearly the system cannot work that way and should not be considered directly related. What reason do you have for why an INTP would have to be a 5, you say the primary function is inborn which suggests you don't presume the aux function is there until later in development, so what stops this child developing Se instead of Ne and being an ISTP, or are they also expected to be 5s?

    Consider the below excerpts from Chestnut





    They have a similar theme imo, one of needs being unmet and withdrawing, so why would an INTP who is 5 react any differently to the way that 5 is expressed, why would they react in a 9 manner if they are not 9 at their core? One seeks to disconnect at their core, the other to maintain connection at all costs, complete opposite reactions/motivations.

    Even if we were to take the premise of all INTPs are born INTP E5 as you suggest, what relevance does that hold if all the core motivations 'develop' into 9 ones? Because if an INTP has the core motivations of a 5 then they would 5, and if they have the core motivations of a 9, then they would be 9, it's not about acting like a different type as behaviours are irrelevant, it's what motivates those behaviours that matters, these are often unconscious motivating factors. Core motivations and fears = relevant to core type. What would you consider the core type, if it's not about the core motivations and fears of a type?

  10. #40
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Here is another I made, using data on >10,000 members at Personality Cafe.



    The data there suggests about a 10:1 ratio of e5 INTPs : e9 INTPs.
    Something's wrong with INFJ's being predominantly 4's... IxxJs have a too strong superego... It should be related to enneagram 1 or another one that's related to superego...

    Enneagram 1 - Ni or Si

    Enneagram 2 - Fe

    Enneagram 3 - Fi or Fe?

    Enneagram 4 - Fi

    Enneagram 5 - Te or Ti?

    Enneagram 6 - Fe or Te?

    Enneagram 7 - Se or Ne (id)

    Enneagram 8 - Se or Te

    Enneagram 9 - Si?

    There seems to be a gradual transition between the functions... couldn't exactly pinpoint it... For instance in, 2-3-4 there seems to be a transition from Fe to Fi... In 4-5-6 there seems to be a transition from Fi to Ti to Te?

    So it appears Ni-Fe and Si-Fe i.e. IxFJ would require 1w2... so does that mean 1w9 more suited to IxTJ....?

    Fi-Se i.e. IxFP would require 3w4 or 4w3 and a 7w8 7w6 or 7w8...

    Ti-Ne would require 5w6?

    Anyway, I can see IxFPs being crowded around 3 and 4 and IxTPs around 5..

    I would expect IxxJs to be concentrated around 1 2 and 9 though...

    Ne and Se doms (and perhaps Te-doms) concentrated around 7 and 8 seems to be normal...

    I would expect 7 and 8 main types to be of the sx variant... and Ne and Se-aux types i.e. 3 and 4 to be sp/sx variant...

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