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  1. #21
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    I used to argue like this, I think I still do. But then eventually the truth has to win. I accept truth, even though it wasn't me that that thought of it. It buthurts but I need that. Which prepares me for the next argument. Then of course, I get the old... "you're over thinking this" speech.
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  2. #22
    noʎ ɟo ǝʇnɔ ʍoH Mademoiselle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdseye View Post
    Occasionally I have arguments or disagreements with an INTJ friend, and it often goes something like this. When he realizes I had proven him wrong about something, rather than just let it go, he tries some sort of mental maneuver tactic to try and convince me that I implied or said something I never actually said, so he can turn the argument around on me and convince me I am actually the wrong one. Basically, whenever we get involved with a discussion, I end up confused. Very confused. He's capable of making me feel like a complete idiot, even though at the same time I'm quite sure my reasoning is valid, and he's the one full of shit. I'm generally open minded to criticism or having people pick at my reasoning, in fact I welcome it and enjoy being proven wrong, but it seems like he just makes pointless points to make himself appear like the "winner" in some kind of game I wasn't even aware we were playing. Is this some kind of ego thing? Maybe it has nothing specifically to do with INTJ’s, and it’s just my friend’s quirk in particular.

    NO..
    I think your INTJ friend is much more smarter than to go after “winning” instead of “learning”.
    I, as an INTj, have a court in my head, I question every idea and each word of it.
    And this court is very legal so it doesn’t make a difference if the founder of the idea is you or even me.
    No matter what my goal is, the first step is always to understand the idea.
    I’m always thinking of things, .. it’s a series of results I get when I round the ideas at every corner, and test them in my lab in ever possible ways.
    No one will understand what I mean if I speak up my mind, or even worse, they’ll misunderstood and judge me stupidly.
    That’s why if I ever speak of my thoughts, it means it worths it, and if it was to someone else, it means I actually care for that person..
    I want him/her to know the truth as far as I know.
    You may question every word I say, I choose them carefully.. so never go away unless you understand what I say, just ask for me to show me you want it.. so I know it worth it. ; )
    Imagine this is the best thing you've ever read.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdseye View Post
    Occasionally I have arguments or disagreements with an INTJ friend, and it often goes something like this. When he realizes I had proven him wrong about something, rather than just let it go, he tries some sort of mental maneuver tactic to try and convince me that I implied or said something I never actually said, so he can turn the argument around on me and convince me I am actually the wrong one. Basically, whenever we get involved with a discussion, I end up confused. Very confused. He's capable of making me feel like a complete idiot, even though at the same time I'm quite sure my reasoning is valid, and he's the one full of shit.
    Then tell him he's full of shit, no matter what type the person may be.

  4. #24
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdseye View Post
    Occasionally I have arguments or disagreements with an INTJ friend, and it often goes something like this. When he realizes I had proven him wrong about something, rather than just let it go, he tries some sort of mental maneuver tactic to try and convince me that I implied or said something I never actually said, so he can turn the argument around on me and convince me I am actually the wrong one. Basically, whenever we get involved with a discussion, I end up confused. Very confused. He's capable of making me feel like a complete idiot, even though at the same time I'm quite sure my reasoning is valid, and he's the one full of shit. I'm generally open minded to criticism or having people pick at my reasoning, in fact I welcome it and enjoy being proven wrong, but it seems like he just makes pointless points to make himself appear like the "winner" in some kind of game I wasn't even aware we were playing. Is this some kind of ego thing? Maybe it has nothing specifically to do with INTJ's, and it's just my friend's quirk in particular.
    The highlighted part is key.

    INTJs and INTPs tend to argue from very divergent contexts. INTPs tend to focus on the literal argument in an abstract way, disconnected from "real-life" context, while INTJs tend to need a "real-life" context in order to understand what is being said/meant at any particular point in time. So your friend could have legitimately heard you say something that implied meanings that you never intended to imply, because he'll unconsciously assume a context based on his experience with what other people might mean when they said something similar to what you said. The crosstalk works both ways. INTJs will often tend to say things that are objectively untrue to INTP ears, because the INTP doesn't hear the implied context from which the INTJ's words arise. That implied context contains the rest of the information that the INTP often lacks, that would have rendered the statement true to both parties.

    This crosstalk tends to make most INTJs appear to INTPs as "needing to win" arguments based on ego-gratification. The truth is that INTPs look just as arrogant to INTJ eyes, dismissing things the INTJ says just because it wasn't said in a form that doesn't violate the INTP's particular standards for validity. We just process things differently, with different ways of validating ideas.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdseye View Post
    Maybe it has nothing specifically to do with INTJ's, and it's just my friend's quirk in particular.
    This. I hate arguing and debating and very much hate having to pick apart someone else's logic, if we want to call it that. Therefore I'm concluding it's not an inherently INTJ thing.

  6. #26
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    In my experience, ISTJ fits this description best.
    I agree with this assessment. Such stubborn refusal to look at the issue objectively seems like more of an S thing to do.

    To be honest, arguing about whether crossfit is better or worse than triathlons or whatever the hell the issue was just seems like a colossal waste of time to me. When I DO argue about something, it's not to win; it's because I honestly believe I'm right, and I have the facts to prove it. But I actually don't mind being proven wrong. In fact, I love when my ideas are challenged, because ultimately, all I'm interested in is learning the truth. If what I believe or think I know is not true, I try to adjust my thinking accordingly.

    I'm willing to get into debates about facts. But arguing about something that is essentially a matter of personal opinion is completely pointless.

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