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  1. #11
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdseye View Post
    Occasionally I have arguments or disagreements with an INTJ friend, and it often goes something like this. When he realizes I had proven him wrong about something, rather than just let it go, he tries some sort of mental maneuver tactic to try and convince me that I implied or said something I never actually said, so he can turn the argument around on me and convince me I am actually the wrong one. Basically, whenever we get involved with a discussion, I end up confused. Very confused. He's capable of making me feel like a complete idiot, even though at the same time I'm quite sure my reasoning is valid, and he's the one full of shit. I'm generally open minded to criticism or having people pick at my reasoning, in fact I welcome it and enjoy being proven wrong, but it seems like he just makes pointless points to make himself appear like the "winner" in some kind of game I wasn't even aware we were playing. Is this some kind of ego thing? Maybe it has nothing specifically to do with INTJ's, and it's just my friend's quirk in particular.
    Your description makes me laugh because I do this with one of my INTP friends. Honestly, I think it's why we have remained friends so long. He always seemed intrigued and amused by my BS, like it was fascinating to watch someone bend and distort the truth in order to win an argument. I would always stand my ground, but knowing I was on thin ice. Sometimes he would manage to completely shut down my argument, which was immensely fun to me. Most people cant do that. It was like mental sparring.
    Embrace the possibilities.

  2. #12
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    The purpose isn't an ego thing to lock you in. It's because for Te, truth is determined by knocking down everything you can, and whatever is left is most likely to be correct. It isn't meant as an attack, and is in some ways a sign of respect. They think enough of you to bother.
    You lose.

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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    The purpose isn't an ego thing to lock you in. It's because for Te, truth is determined by knocking down everything you can, and whatever is left is most likely to be correct. It isn't meant as an attack, and is in some ways a sign of respect. They think enough of you to bother.
    Thumbs up! "They think enough of you to bother" brilliantly said.
    I will execute battle in every format, and if it's too easy; I play devil's advocate, and re-argue. If I don't respect you or feel you are on my level... I won't even waste the effort!

    Well Played good sir!

  4. #14
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    My INTJ friend does this pretty much all the time with me when he isnt doing it(or just playing devils advocate and argue with people) on the internet with someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    The purpose isn't an ego thing to lock you in. It's because for Te, truth is determined by knocking down everything you can, and whatever is left is most likely to be correct. It isn't meant as an attack, and is in some ways a sign of respect. They think enough of you to bother.
    But what if this "Te" is trying to knock down everything that goes against Ni delusions, regardless of what ever. And always finding some totally irrelevant point that to him supposedly proves something, even tho there isnt any logical argument for it and any logical arguments against it is countered with something irrelevant?

    You know stuff like:

    INTJ: omg lol this crossfit shit is stupid, look how this guy does pullups *insert video*. Also its dangerous because they use too heavy weigths and push their limits too much.
    INTP: Not all crossfitters do pullups like that, its just some troll video that someone like you made to make crossfit look bad.. Also even if some people do it like that, its still pretty good because he does those for 10 minutes and then does push ups for 10 mins and 10 mins of those silly pull ups again.. Also the reason why its so dangerous is because people dont know what they are doing due to crappy coaches *insert article on how easy it is to get coaching degree on crossfit, how it effects on whether people crossfit safely or not and which shows common mistakes that people do*
    INTJ: *inserts an article that shows how many injuries crossfit causes* look its dangerous to do crossfit, they push their limits too much.. Also it doesent make you stronger, because it uses small muscles that help you lift or something.
    INTP: I already said why its dangerous for some, it not any more dangerous than normal weight lifting if you do it properly. You can get good results from it, even navy seals, firefighters etc use it because it gives good overall fitness, not just something to grow big biceps with..
    INTJ: *inserts a video of some regular gym guy laughing at crossfitters and showing some stupid moves that apparently define crossfit* Look how good shape this guy is, he would easily beat crossfitters on weight lifting or anything on gym, he even does proper pull ups look *inserts a timestamp on the video*
    INTP: disproves everything and explains that in real world we do use those small muscles and that they are good to train too or you end up as some hulk who can lift 500kg, but cant walk small strairs up without being exhausted.
    (more people join me to laugh at him and disprove everything he says for several hours)
    And i keep doing this for few days, because he tries to disprove me with some stupid shit like people getting hurt for not doing it right or something like that. Then it stops for some days and still at times get videos at time to time that troll crossfitters and are supposedly some proofs of crossfit being the shitties sport on earth, and i just reply with something like that i would like to see him doing the warm up of the girls on the video..

    But why does these things happen? Well usually its him reading reddit and apparently people on reddit laugh at crossfitters because so many people cant do it correctly(because of the reason i mentioned earlier). Dat Te . And no, its not about lack of intelligence, this guy has IQ of 140+, but apparently it doesent help much if you use NiTe and spend too much time on reddit..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Opal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    My INTJ friend does this pretty much all the time with me when he isnt doing it(or just playing devils advocate and argue with people) on the internet with someone else.



    But what if this "Te" is trying to knock down everything that goes against Ni delusions, regardless of what ever. And always finding some totally irrelevant point that to him supposedly proves something, even tho there isnt any logical argument for it and any logical arguments against it is countered with something irrelevant?

    You know stuff like:

    INTJ: omg lol this crossfit shit is stupid, look how this guy does pullups *insert video*. Also its dangerous because they use too heavy weigths and push their limits too much.
    INTP: Not all crossfitters do pullups like that, its just some troll video that someone like you made to make crossfit look bad.. Also even if some people do it like that, its still pretty good because he does those for 10 minutes and then does push ups for 10 mins and 10 mins of those silly pull ups again.. Also the reason why its so dangerous is because people dont know what they are doing due to crappy coaches *insert article on how easy it is to get coaching degree on crossfit, how it effects on whether people crossfit safely or not and which shows common mistakes that people do*
    INTJ: *inserts an article that shows how many injuries crossfit causes* look its dangerous to do crossfit, they push their limits too much.. Also it doesent make you stronger, because it uses small muscles that help you lift or something.
    INTP: I already said why its dangerous for some, it not any more dangerous than normal weight lifting if you do it properly. You can get good results from it, even navy seals, firefighters etc use it because it gives good overall fitness, not just something to grow big biceps with..
    INTJ: *inserts a video of some regular gym guy laughing at crossfitters and showing some stupid moves that apparently define crossfit* Look how good shape this guy is, he would easily beat crossfitters on weight lifting or anything on gym, he even does proper pull ups look *inserts a timestamp on the video*
    INTP: disproves everything and explains that in real world we do use those small muscles and that they are good to train too or you end up as some hulk who can lift 500kg, but cant walk small strairs up without being exhausted.
    (more people join me to laugh at him and disprove everything he says for several hours)
    And i keep doing this for few days, because he tries to disprove me with some stupid shit like people getting hurt for not doing it right or something like that. Then it stops for some days and still at times get videos at time to time that troll crossfitters and are supposedly some proofs of crossfit being the shitties sport on earth, and i just reply with something like that i would like to see him doing the warm up of the girls on the video..

    But why does these things happen? Well usually its him reading reddit and apparently people on reddit laugh at crossfitters because so many people cant do it correctly(because of the reason i mentioned earlier). Dat Te . And no, its not about lack of intelligence, this guy has IQ of 140+, but apparently it doesent help much if you use NiTe and spend too much time on reddit..
    Your INTJ friend has an IQ >140 and argues points founded on imbecilic logic and supported by unverified evidence?

    The appropriate approach to that argument is "I was reading a discussion board where people challenged the efficacy of crossfit programs: <link> thoughts?"

  6. #16
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opalescence View Post
    Your INTJ friend has an IQ >140 and argues points founded on imbecilic logic and supported by unverified evidence?

    The appropriate approach to that argument is "really? I was reading a discussion board where people challenged the efficacy of crossfit programs: <link>http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/ thoughts?"
    Its not imbecilic logic(and IQ was 141 or 143 on mensa test) because so many people on reddit thinks that way and on reddit only good comments get up-voted and stupid shit gets down-voted, its Te logic! Also there is loads of data that crossfit is dangerous and the reason for this is that because people push their limits too much and everyone who got up-voted on reddit says that its the point of crossfit and thus in NiTe-world something that defines crossfit.

    And no, that approach doesent work. I already pulled that card, but apparently because triathlon + regular gym is better than crossfit, crossfit is the shittiest because its dangerous.. And no showing that gym being equally dangerous if you dont know what you are doing didnt help either. Someone once told me that INTJs can be a bit stubborn or something like that..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Opal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Its not imbecilic logic(and IQ was 141 or 143 on mensa test) because so many people on reddit thinks that way and on reddit only good comments get up-voted and stupid shit gets down-voted, its Te logic! Also there is loads of data that crossfit is dangerous and the reason for this is that because people push their limits too much and everyone who got up-voted on reddit says that its the point of crossfit and thus in NiTe-world something that defines crossfit.

    And no, that approach doesent work. I already pulled that card, but apparently because triathlon + regular gym is better than crossfit, crossfit is the shittiest because its dangerous.. And no showing that gym being equally dangerous if you dont know what you are doing didnt help either. Someone once told me that INTJs can be a bit stubborn or something like that..
    I guess less imbecilic than dependent. I would expect an INTJ to research the issue and develop an informed opinion (based on the results of studies) before arguing one side or another. To be fair, though, I considered myself an INTJ and am now weighing ISFP, so what do I know?

  8. #18
    Senior Member Rambling's Avatar
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    I'd have argued like that twenty years ago if I had time to spare and I'd be doing it purely to explore the mental mapping and innards of the person I was debating with. It's a game, as others have said.

    I try to be more friendly and less argumentative now...

  9. #19
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdseye View Post
    Occasionally I have arguments or disagreements with an INTJ friend, and it often goes something like this. When he realizes I had proven him wrong about something, rather than just let it go, he tries some sort of mental maneuver tactic to try and convince me that I implied or said something I never actually said, so he can turn the argument around on me and convince me I am actually the wrong one. Basically, whenever we get involved with a discussion, I end up confused. Very confused. He's capable of making me feel like a complete idiot, even though at the same time I'm quite sure my reasoning is valid, and he's the one full of shit. I'm generally open minded to criticism or having people pick at my reasoning, in fact I welcome it and enjoy being proven wrong, but it seems like he just makes pointless points to make himself appear like the "winner" in some kind of game I wasn't even aware we were playing. Is this some kind of ego thing? Maybe it has nothing specifically to do with INTJ's, and it's just my friend's quirk in particular.
    Ni is about the gathering of information, not proving who is the winner. I would say IxTJ or ExTJ, based on the above.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #20
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birdseye View Post
    Occasionally I have arguments or disagreements with an INTJ friend, and it often goes something like this. When he realizes I had proven him wrong about something, rather than just let it go, he tries some sort of mental maneuver tactic to try and convince me that I implied or said something I never actually said, so he can turn the argument around on me and convince me I am actually the wrong one. Basically, whenever we get involved with a discussion, I end up confused. Very confused. He's capable of making me feel like a complete idiot, even though at the same time I'm quite sure my reasoning is valid, and he's the one full of shit. I'm generally open minded to criticism or having people pick at my reasoning, in fact I welcome it and enjoy being proven wrong, but it seems like he just makes pointless points to make himself appear like the "winner" in some kind of game I wasn't even aware we were playing. Is this some kind of ego thing? Maybe it has nothing specifically to do with INTJ's, and it's just my friend's quirk in particular.
    In my experience, ISTJ fits this description best.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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