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  1. #31
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    Thanks for this...I was guilty about "nagging" about getting treatment but I know I had to deal with my own fears/anxiety about my mom's death so that I wouldn't impose them on his medical diagnosis which may/may not be as bad. The thing is I can understand his position, completely, but my emotions were really overwhelming at the time. He was talking about facing his own mortality and I just wanted to "fix" it and protect him from any pain...which isn't possible, I know. I really don't care about getting any credit, I just wanted to be there for him.

    I had to laugh about "seeking emergency treatment for a tractor accident" and not being pressured into it...you have no idea how close that is to the truth.

    So, your comments have been such a gift to me (not to sound too cheesy, lol) at a really difficult time because I see the wisdom in what you say. Letting go is the kindest thing I can do, which I am doing. I hadn't brought up any discussion about getting treatment for a while now and last night he said he wasn't going to, and I said that I completely understood his decision. And I do, and I can find some peace in that and still be there for him, no matter his path.
    You are very welcome. I'm glad I could provide some comfort as you seem like a very good friend. I really do believe you wouldn't "take credit" and only want to help. We're just odd about future possibilities sometimes. He's lucky to have you.

    You were really very right too to just say you understood when he said that. Taking the time to relax about worrying over him and using all that free time and that kindness towards yourself will make you a better, healthier friend and give you some personal peace, I think. Seems you've done the right things and you guys will be fine. I'm really glad if anything I said helped. (And, I actually like cheesy when it doesn't seem fake - like your's didn't. )

    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    ^
    How funny! He brought up returning to the Oregon coast when we talked last night... the beach is a magical happy pill.
    Ha! A change of scenery always helps... assuming it's not prison. Take care!
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  2. #32
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post

    Question: When he brings up ideas and upon further reflection I see barriers or limits (lack of funds/resources, etc.) do I bring them up, or do I just listen and let him continue to brainstorm? These limits/barriers do exist in reality (believe me, I have gone around and around to reduce them or eliminate them but they do exist) but I don't want to interrupt his process.
    Let him figure our the limits... if he really wants something he can pretty much do what he wants to do.

    For now, get him to places he has never been before, even for a an afternoon or weekend or day trip. short hop travel refreshes the brain, even bill board advertising is stimuls to an NT.

    for ENTPs - think along the lines, have lots of ideas, chuck the bad ones out. The good ones root, but to be honest he needs to explore the possibilities. We are unnatural optimists, in good state we can take the knocks but when vulnerable we can down our own ideas as good as anyone else.

  3. #33
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    ^
    the beach is a magical happy pill.

    Beaches are good, especially ones with a range of textures to them... like rock pools and sand. But ultimately change the scene, doesn't have to be a beach if its far away, even a trip to the country or a few towns away, a small adventure, just change the environment.

  4. #34
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Let him figure our the limits... if he really wants something he can pretty much do what he wants to do.

    For now, get him to places he has never been before, even for a an afternoon or weekend or day trip. short hop travel refreshes the brain, even bill board advertising is stimuls to an NT.

    for ENTPs - think along the lines, have lots of ideas, chuck the bad ones out. The good ones root, but to be honest he needs to explore the possibilities. We are unnatural optimists, in good state we can take the knocks but when vulnerable we can down our own ideas as good as anyone else.
    Thanks for this direction...especially the part about letting him figure out the limits. He has shared some ideas with me about how to change his situation and starting to flesh out his plan, and I am just flowing with it. He has also shared with me the beginning of his newest book idea (he has already written three chapters!) when we went out last night and I am just excited about his enthusiasm for this project.

    I also took your advice about a road trip and went to the mountains!
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    Question: When he brings up ideas and upon further reflection I see barriers or limits (lack of funds/resources, etc.) do I bring them up, or do I just listen and let him continue to brainstorm? These limits/barriers do exist in reality (believe me, I have gone around and around to reduce them or eliminate them but they do exist) but I don't want to interrupt his process.
    both.

    ok, this is what it sounds like:
    when he brainstorms things with obvious problems, he probably knows they are there (at the very least he sounds very conscious about his lack of funds).
    so he's is essentially brainstorming IF fantasies - "if i had X i could do Y". what he's doing right now - brainstorming the problem itself - only works when the solution is inherit to the problem... which isn't always the case. instead it just leads him to brainstorm if the problems wasn't there.

    which makes perfect sense:
    he is thinking about "the goal" (solving a problem) so he is thinking what he could do "with the goal" (what he could do if the problem was solved).
    Ne doesn't start from a target - it doesn't start from the problem its trying to fix
    rather: it starts from potentials of resources - what could i do with X, what can it be changed into.
    you can think of it reverse Se: instead of asking what something is, Ne asks what it isn't [yet] and how that can be changed.
    and you brainstorm what you could do with X until it strikes Y, and you brain storm what you can do with Z until it strikes X, and if your lucky it eventually strikes ground, "but wait, i can actually go and do Z...." and when those connections are made, that's when it gets exciting.

    think about it like evolution - water-wave-creators (fins) can be seen as pretty useless out of the water, but evolution explored what amphibians can do with them and found out they make for great ground pushers (legs), which happened to work better with toes, which turn out to be really great at grasping on branches, which turned out to be not-so-horrible tool manipulators, who are turning out to be pretty decent in nuclear bomb construction, which then made the land uninhabitable after ww3 and thus made the whole move out of the ocean into a really bad decision (stupid fish). the point is: NTP brains aren't that far off (with Ne generating mutations & cross breeds, and Ti playing the role of the selection of the fittest.. or at least most logically-consistent).

    so how about this: you don't brainstorm the problem, you seed the problem at the back of his head, and instead you brainstorm about everything else.
    leave the problems at the back of his head, and encourage the possibilities to accumulate until they hit the problem.
    on the immediate level, accumulating possibilities and letting them connect carries the same experience of a cathartic moment, the Ne equivalent of "ahuh!", which is probably the best way to invigorate him on a moment to moment level (other then fucking him), and help him regain his self confidence. in the long term, as random as it might seem, it can prove to be a remarkably innovative problem solving mechanism - and could actually help him figure out the footholds for climbing out of the rut.

    so back to your question:

    here's what do you do...
    1. let the brain storm continue
    2. take mental note of the problems
    (keep in mind that the problem with the possibility doesn't make it irrelevant, it just makes it into a potential later step)
    3. mention them later in a btw way... and occasionally while he brainstorms something else completely.
    result: if the problem of the plan to do X was needing Y, he'll have Y at the back of his head when he thinks of Z, and... he might gain some of his mojo in the process.

    on a side note: since not treating terminal diseases is sort of.... you know, very close to suicide... there seems to be a very basic very convincing argument against that - if you continue to live you can always change your mind in the future, if you die changing your mind will be a bit difficult, and since you can never know what reason you might have to live tomorrow that you haven't figured out yet (i.e. writing his book before thinking about writing the book).

    i'm exhausted so i am hoping i was able to make it make sense, and maybe even useful.
    (if it didn't it's tomorrow-me's fault, and i am sure he'll take full responsibility. i had nothing to do with it).

  6. #36
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post

    so how about this: you don't brainstorm the problem, you seed the problem at the back of his head, and instead you brainstorm about everything else. leave the problems at the back of his head, and encourage the possibilities to accumulate until they hit the problem.
    on the immediate level, accumulating possibilities and letting them connect carries the same experience of a cathartic moment, the Ne equivalent of "ahuh!",

    which is probably the best way to invigorate him on a moment to moment level (other then fucking him), and help him regain his self confidence. in the long term, as random as it might seem, it can prove to be a remarkably innovative problem solving mechanism - and could actually help him figure out the footholds for climbing out of the rut.
    so back to your question:

    here's what do you do...
    1. let the brain storm continue
    2. take mental note of the problems
    (keep in mind that the problem with the possibility doesn't make it irrelevant, it just makes it into a potential later step)
    3. mention them later in a btw way... and occasionally while he brainstorms something else completely.
    result: if the problem of the plan to do X was needing Y, he'll have Y at the back of his head when he thinks of Z, and... he might gain some of his mojo in the process.

    on a side note: since not treating terminal diseases is sort of.... you know, very close to suicide... there seems to be a very basic very convincing argument against that - if you continue to live you can always change your mind in the future, if you die changing your mind will be a bit difficult, and since you can never know what reason you might have to live tomorrow that you haven't figured out yet (i.e. writing his book before thinking about writing the book).
    I like this approach ALOT even though it seems counterintuitive to me but it actually seems like the most effective way to "solve" this "unsolvable" problem. I think I have been stuck in some sort of NiTi loop while trying to look at this from every angle but only getting frustrated and imposing those emotions on my ex, which isn't helpful or fair to him. Looking at barriers before trying to solve it hasn't worked (obviously) so I see the value in this approach. I haven't gone into great depth on ALL of the barriers, but as you (and others) have said, I need to change my thinking on how to approach this. I think I am too limited in some of my thinking on this because I am so emotionally attached to the issue (Fe).

    Regarding your side note: I have talked to him many times in the past about path of treatment (getting care vs. not getting care) but have never been so blunt to bring up the "suicide" word by not getting treatment. As I said earlier there is a great deal of uncertainty/unknown information about the diagnosis. I can only compare it to a mathematical equation where the variables are unknown, AND even the number of variables is unknown..... Yes, I can create lists of pros and cons but in the end it isn't my decision and quality of life is equally important to quantity. If I felt he was suicidal or clinically depressed, I would act, but in the end it is his decision and I have to respect that.

    Thanks for your thoughts.

    FWIW: At one point, early on, he was trying to get on a wait list for medical care. With no insurance, trying to paying out of pocket, the costs were outrageous. These are the sorts of life and death decisions people make who have no health care...I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.
    Last edited by statuesquechica; 04-17-2014 at 05:53 PM.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

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