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  1. #31
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post


    ^No, I don't. It was an example. And all the countries I've lived in (Russia, Norway, Belgium), had a similar focus. I also specified adequate social skills vs specialisation in an earlier post. I recognised that society does penalise you for sucking at it. The specialisation of social skills though is also penalised, as stated above, while Logic skills are encouraged above and beyond. I doubt our country devotes precious school time to social skills either - it is all logic based. Social skills is learned in the playground without any finnesse. It's just a matter of drowning or surviving, and that, society deems good enough. And in college you can study psychology, and Pr and what have you, but even there - the highest degree in psychology is a doctorate - and its all IQ and research based. It's the scientist approach. And from what I've seen, the people I know, you don't need social skills or any EQ *whatsoever* to be granted a doctorate in psychology, or any of those fields.

    It is the perfect testament to our obsession with logic and reason, aka IQ.

    Funny enough, I have more respect for those who are actually competent counsellors and only hold a Bachelors or a Masters in Psychology as they *actually* know what the fuck they are doing within their field, as they are putting their knowledge to use instead of just observing. Sadly, their competence aint guaranteed by that degree either. PR, yes you need to have some social graces to get ahead, but mostly enough to game the system. If I see what kind of laughable standard we demand from 'social professions', compared to the average standard set on IQ in most jobs, I want to cry. Bunch of fucking EQ frauds, no offence.
    The bold parts are *frighteningly* true.
    1) Social skills is learned in the playground without any finnesse. It's just a matter of drowning or surviving, and that, society deems good enough.
    First, you spelled "finesse" wrong. /obligatory-INTJ-snark>
    Second, I drowned. Still trying to recover. I think some of my INTJ-ness was revenge for being cruelly snubbed merely for being socially ineffectual without hostility on my part.
    2) And in college you can study psychology, and Pr and what have you, but even there - the highest degree in psychology is a doctorate - and its all IQ and research based. It's the scientist approach.
    Echoes conversations I have had with a psychologist.
    3) Funny enough, I have more respect for those who are actually competent counsellors and only hold a Bachelors or a Masters in Psychology as they *actually* know what the fuck they are doing within their field, as they are putting their knowledge to use instead of just observing. Sadly, their competence aint guaranteed by that degree either. PR, yes you need to have some social graces to get ahead, but mostly enough to game the system. If I see what kind of laughable standard we demand from 'social professions', compared to the average standard set on IQ in most jobs, I want to cry. Bunch of fucking EQ frauds, no offence.
    Yes, true psychology -- "counseling" is much more *art* than science. The social disciplines have thrown away what it means to *be* human, and to relate to the client on that level *first*. But because of the societal prestige of the sciences, and of a PhD -- ya gotta have one to impress the patient, and keep the govt. off your back: shades of patent medicines and quackery before there the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906 (IIRC), when you could buy cough syrup with opium or codeine over the counter. But most of the "art" of psychology is wisdom, not knowledge.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  2. #32
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    I think that such is because social skills can be used to take someone down either face-to-face, in a roundabout fashion (say, either "rope-a-dope" or turning a conversation or the consensus in a group, against the non-socially-skilled), or, plain "stab-in-the-back" wise. So it's harder to defend against, and can do its work even while hidden from the target (unless the target is equally socially savvy).
    Conventional IQ is pretty much like a Dirac Delta function: infinite on one point, pretty much useless otherwise. And even within its sphere of influence, it can be neutralized socially.
    I disagree with this. Social skills and conventional intelligence seem instead to correspond to different goals, or definitions of success. The victories social skills sometimes seem to gain over conventional intelligence are often things that those who rely on conventional intelligence don't value anyway. It's like losing a contest where the prize isn't interesting to you.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #33
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I disagree with this. Social skills and conventional intelligence seem instead to correspond to different goals, or definitions of success. The victories social skills sometimes seem to gain over conventional intelligence are often things that those who rely on conventional intelligence don't value anyway. It's like losing a contest where the prize isn't interesting to you.
    I'll call a truce on this one. I agree that the victories are often on things that those who rely on conventional intelligence don't value anyway; but in *MANY* cases, it would be better for the conventional-IQ-user if they *did* value those things to some extent; because one of the things they don't value is approval or consensus...
    with the result that they often get "headed off at the pass" socially or career-wise, preventing them from implementing or realizing the logically superior, more efficacious plans and ideas that they have.

    If the IQ would learn social skills to the point of salesmanship, or even just not rocking the boat, they'd get much further along in many ways.
    ...NOT to say that pure sales-weasels and MBA types are always necessary, or good; but sometimes they do come in handy.

    Best regards.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  4. #34
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    If the IQ would learn social skills to the point of salesmanship, or even just not rocking the boat, they'd get much further along in many ways.
    ...NOT to say that pure sales-weasels and MBA types are always necessary, or good; but sometimes they do come in handy.
    That they do. I would prefer to team with such a person and leave the schmoozing and salesmanship to them, so I can concentrate on the work I prefer and do best.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #35
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    That they do. I would prefer to team with such a person and leave the schmoozing and salesmanship to them, so I can concentrate on the work I prefer and do best.
    Shake hands all round, then.
    I've found I've done better as I've learned rudimentary social skills; enough, at least, to translate to the MBA / marketer types in my vicinity.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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