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  1. #21
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    If your partners feel intellectually inferior, you're either picking the wrong partners or acting in a way that makes them feel insecure about their intelligence.

    NT average intelligence is higher than overall average intelligence, but not by much - the exact number depends on the study but the ones I've seen show an average 10-20 points higher than the overall population average, which is a difference you are unlikely to notice in person, even disregarding individual variation (which is critical). And you are certainly not limited to a partner with an IQ of 100. There are lots of smart women around, NT or not - maybe you're looking in the wrong places.

    There are very, very few people who are so smart that they can't relate to a person of average intelligence, although there are quite a few people who can't relate with people at all and try very hard to convince themselves that it's due to a massive intellect, even going to the extent of making others feel stupid (consciously or subconsciously). There are also quite a few men who seem to prefer dating less intelligent women, for whatever reason. If you choose an intelligent and confident partner like yourself, and respect her opinions and intelligence, you're unlikely to find that she's intimidated by your gigantic NT brain.
    -end of thread-

  2. #22
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Did someone remove my post? I see that it shows up in my "quotes section" but it's gone on the forum. I will try one more time, and see what happens. I spent a lot of time typing that, regrettably, in the interest of honest communication. It was not a hostile post, apart from sarcasm in a few places.

    I wish people would stop presuming to know who I prefer to date or assuming that I haven't thought long and hard about what I didn't do right in my relationships. Not that anyone is doing that.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #23
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    If your partners feel intellectually inferior, you're either picking the wrong partners or acting in a way that makes them feel insecure about their intelligence.

    NT average intelligence is higher than overall average intelligence, but not by much - the exact number depends on the study but the ones I've seen show an average 10-20 points higher than the overall population average, which is a difference you are unlikely to notice in person, even disregarding individual variation (which is critical). And you are certainly not limited to a partner with an IQ of 100. There are lots of smart women around, NT or not - maybe you're looking in the wrong places.

    There are very, very few people who are so smart that they can't relate to a person of average intelligence, although there are quite a few people who can't relate with people at all and try very hard to convince themselves that it's due to a massive intellect, even going to the extent of making others feel stupid (consciously or subconsciously). There are also quite a few men who seem to prefer dating less intelligent women, for whatever reason. If you choose an intelligent and confident partner like yourself, and respect her opinions and intelligence, you're unlikely to find that she's intimidated by your gigantic NT brain.
    True that.
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  4. #24
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Did someone remove my post? I see that it shows up in my "quotes section" but it's gone on the forum. I will try one more time, and see what happens. I spent a lot of time typing that, regrettably, in the interest of honest communication. It was not a hostile post, apart from sarcasm in a few places.

    I wish people would stop presuming to know who I prefer to date or assuming that I haven't thought long and hard about what I didn't do right in my relationships. Not that anyone is doing that.
    Hmm disregard the VM, I guess I can only restore it if a mod deleted it - looks like you deleted it by accident. I can see it though, and if you like I can copy the post's contents for you?

    edit: wait I figured out how to restore it, I'm an idiot. Undeleted for ya
    -end of thread-

  5. #25
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Hmm disregard the VM, I guess I can only restore it if a mod deleted it - looks like you deleted it by accident. I can see it though, and if you like I can copy the post's contents for you?

    edit: wait I figured out how to restore it, I'm an idiot. Undeleted for ya
    Thanks... paranoia I guess. I typed it on my smartphone (part of why I took so long) so I might have hit something accidentally.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  6. #26
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    While I concur largely with what you've outlined here, and I do understand, my posts were a ranting/soapbox moment, so do take it with the necessary disclaimers.
    I have no qualms with people not being able to specify what they like, it's more a symptom of the overall problem for me: it is the fact that it is taken for granted and not even deemed worthy of a second of consideration, in which you might actually self-reflect as to what exactly it is you value about that skillset or at the very least acknowledge it as a fucking skill set instead of just a basic perk in the package. You're right that it is highly valued in women, to the point where women who aren't like that necessarily get scorned for it - like not having supposedly enough IQ can get you scorned, for that matter. My problem with it though is that you are supposed to be average. Nothing else. It does not get recognised as something worthy of high praise, it's just something that is part of the basic package, and specialisation gets you fear and labels like 'evil' whereas with IQ, or NT skills, whatever you wanna call you, get you called genius and talented. Meanwhile, for sure, it is expected in women coz of the whole mothering thing. It's just a role that is taken for granted though. It is expected that you smoothe the conversations, that you support and care and make room for 'their genius'. And that bothers me *incredibly*. A spoonful of recognition and humility on their part would be just...lovely. Of course, ironically, that is part of the social skill set so perhaps I'm just...frustrated with ineptitude, the same way they are frustrated with my assumed ineptitude - sorry, I suffered from the blonde bimbo stereotype way too many times and as much fun as it is to prove them wrong and make them eat their words and play the underdog, it's fucking infuriating.

    It reminds me of the time I was a veterinarian assistant. All the doctors insist on being called doctor and being treated with respect - meaning that we had the screaming customers that then went in and were too intimidated by the 'doctor' to do the same, only to have the doctor mock you later as that patient wasn't so hard to handle, was he? Or have the doctor demand you keep their personal preferences in mind when organising their schedule - of 7 fucking different people - and yell at you when they had a bad day, coz hey, thats what you're there for, right? Your job is to smile and take it. Until one day we told them to either change or run the desk themselves. Suddenly they couldn't say enough good things about us and praise us for how hard our jobs really are - despite all the derogatory comments about how what they did was something that nobody else could and our jobs were easy peasy for everyone - coz NOBODY wanted to go near a phone with 3 lines at once, and screaming customers while organising an entire waiting room. Suddenly, they made it a point on their agenda to occasionally at least acknowledge the shit we took for them and from them, as well as the skills it took to multitask and organise like that.


    Tl;dr: it's the typical secretary-boss gripe, basically, that I have with this. And again, this is just one type of other intelligence out there that deserves some modicum of recognition.

    It seems you're just not finding people who value your strengths & communicate it well.

    Not to psycho-analyze too much (but certainly a little), this sounds like the kind of thing INFPs go through a lot, but with a different frustration. It's the frustration that's familiar - "the world does not appreciate what I have to offer". The world values impersonal, measurable stuff, not whatever personal significance you create that does have value (but not very measurable value). This is the inferior Te chip on the shoulder you see more obviously in INFPs.

    But I notice ENFPs focus so much on potential in others they don't always see their own. I see them online gushing over INTJs & how they appreciate how they bring logic/order to them, blah blah blah. That's nice I guess, if you're happy with that dynamic, but it looks to me like playing to someone else's ego at the expense of your own. I suppose if your ego is mostly centered on sussing out potential in others & you take pride into influencing them to reach their potential, then this dynamic works pretty well for awhile. But like most people, your ego is not that one-dimensional, and you are more beyond your ego even. I see the Fi aspect of the ego trying to emerge here - you're an individual with a unique value, not just existing as an extension of other people. This happens a lot to extroverts. They define themselves too much in terms of the object. Because your usual Ne approach is not working for you, and you're avoiding introverting, childish Te is bubbling forth. There's obvious Si where you keep focusing on supposed "truths" backed with shaky experiences & "facts".

    You need to not resist Fi - society doesn't value blah blah blah, because it's WRONG. This requires a faith that when you embody this basic value you know to be true, that people will recognize it when they experience it. It's your job to give it a form & a name; they won't because they can't. Most of the credit you will get here is when people MIMIC you. They take on that value for themselves. It seems you have noted this. I know the frustration in not being directly recognized, and I don't know what to say about that. Back to the "what's valued in women" thing, this has been an issue for women since forever. So-called "feminine" strengths are given less value in general.

    I think the OP is likely facing a similar problem, in the attitudes of the women he's dating, because regardless of their type, there will always be some point where their initial role is not enough to make up for not feeling valued as a whole person, rather a role in relation to someone else. Sometimes it's a matter of the dynamic playing up an insecurity, so both parties are responsible, and other times it's just the individual's own insecurity.

    I don't have any advice, other then letting someone know what you need to know/hear from them, but I guess that can look, er, needy.

    Hypothetically, what would you like to receive from other people that would make your strengths feel more valued?
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  7. #27
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I don't think that's true. There are girls who are very sociable and sensual, or very careful, nice and diplomatic, but can be really good at purely logical thinking when it's required.
    True, but those who combine both are very very rare, ime/by my standards. I've met a couple of Ms. Perfect E3s, but it's like their whole life is a performance... Not interested.

    Unless you're talking about the 'jack of all trades, master of none' variety of person, which I find undesirable. Picture an annoying ENTP who thinks he/she knows it better than everyone when his/her level of expertise in a given subject is average at best. (p.s. every mbti type has its variety of annoying)

    -----

    Anyways, luckily that's not a big concern with the ESTP I'm seeing.

    Used to be a big problem with an ESFJ, who would ask me questions like 'do you think I'm dumb?' after failing a test. She was as lovely as emotionally demanding. Such a pure soul... But I digress.

    The ESTP makes some carefree self deprecating remarks at times (yellow alert), though she is able to discuss pretty much anything with me on an equal level. She learns things quickly, reads a lot, and is relatively driven. I make sure I show appreciation for her strengths once in a while, but perhaps she's just naturally modest.

  8. #28
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    You can see that in the way we push kids in schools non-stop to learn logic, and guide them as best we can, yet social graces are something you learn 'on the job' by being tossed together with other kids, in a swim or drown' situation.
    I can't speak for the schools where you live, but in the U.S., schools do a rather poor job of teaching logic and critical thinking. There is still far too much rote memorizing, solving problems cookbook-style, and yes - even learning social skills. Group work and peer interactions are emphasized, even at the expense of academic accomplishment in many places, but it still doesn't work. This means NT students, or perhaps Ts or I_Ts in general, are often frustrated by the social expectations to the point that it can interfere with the rest of their learning, with no real gain on the social side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Funny enough, I have more respect for those who are actually competent counsellors and only hold a Bachelors or a Masters in Psychology as they *actually* know what the fuck they are doing within their field, as they are putting their knowledge to use instead of just observing. Sadly, their competence aint guaranteed by that degree either. PR, yes you need to have some social graces to get ahead, but mostly enough to game the system. If I see what kind of laughable standard we demand from 'social professions', compared to the average standard set on IQ in most jobs, I want to cry. Bunch of fucking EQ frauds, no offence.
    Much of this comes simply from the increasing trend to demand paper credentials. It is no longer enough to be able to do a job, you must possess the correct diplomas and certifications. Makes no more sense for engineers than for counselors.

    At the same time, I wouldn't say having outstanding social or people skills gets no positive attention or praise. In addition to the obvious counselors and clergy, there are also negotiators (think peace or hostage rather than business), activists for the poor and marginalized, even teachers, etc. There was a case recently of a teacher talking down yet another school shooter. He didn't do that using logic and technical skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Humility is valuable to an extent. But, if you are too humble, people say you lack self-confidence. And if they say you lack self-confidence, they think you lack skills. Sucks, but that's the way most people think.
    Too much humility is as bad as too much pride. Better to have an accurate assessment of your strengths and weaknesses, and be honest about that with others.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I think some NTs also react poorly to NFs trying to "help them grow" in a manner that involves them acting more like NFs. The reasons for this can be varied, but perhaps some of them tried that and found they had to give up or sacrifice things that were important to them.

    I am not saying we shouldn't volunteer to feed the homeless or anything. I am saying that I think well-intentioned nfs with excellent people skills sometines are blind and deaf to what the NT truly wants out of life.
    The first paragraph cannot be emphasized enough, especially considering it's a different story when the shoe is on the other foot. How many people do you know (and how many are likely Fs) who seem almost proud of their inability to do math, even simple math like balancing their checkbook or figuring out which bank loan offer has better terms?

    To the second paragraph I would add that NTs are not unwilling to help, we often just prefer to help in different ways. I volunteer for a community organization that runs alot of public meetings, does personal networking to fundraise, and generally involves alot of social interaction, most of which I prefer to avoid. I support their agenda, though, so to help I maintain their website, and everyone's happy.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #29
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I want to know how common is that for you NTs, and how do you deal with that.

    Ime, the women I get along with romantically usually have superior people skills, writing skills, among others, but I believe my edge on logical/impersonal thinking makes them feel insecure about their abilities at times. Not bragging or anything; there are many types of intelligence and I don't see logical intelligence as superior to others.

    Experiences, thoughts, etc, welcome.
    This is really intriguing to me; I am probably one of the less logical NTs, but I had a good early education and am at the high end of my communication potential, so I often seem to come across to people (non-NTs, probably) as very intelligent. I'm not intelligent; I'm about average; however, it's a persistent illusion in the eyes of all but a couple of my oldest friends. I thought early on it was a good thing (and it is, especially in classes -- teachers and professors always loved me out of proportion to my actual abilities); however, when it comes to meeting new people it is a serious impediment.

    To be honest, I haven't come to a good permanent solution; the thing I have been doing ever since I got into college is to become an 'interviewer'; I pretty much take the role of the guy who is really interested in learning about and asking questions about whatever the other person knows about. The difficulty with this is that it encourages me to become excessively analytical in my thinking about the ongoing conversation. I have no glaring personal or character deformities; this being the case, it is only natural that I can get most people to like me when I put all my energy into being interested in them; the trouble is that after all that acting, I'm no longer interested in them because it has become a puzzle that I have figured out ("How do I solve this person?") instead of something naturally occurring.

    Both men and women react very positively to people who act like their lives, studies, and/or jobs are fascinating; it gives them a self-confidence boost, which they often attribute to the shining personal qualities of the person who is interested in them. In reality, they don't really need to know much of anything about the personal qualities of the 'interested' person; as long as the conversation is flowing smoothly, a few choice details and anecdotes are sufficient for the average person to think that they know much more than they do.

  10. #30
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Perhaps. Still, though, to use us here as an example: this is an international forum, with the majority being from the US, and it was originally started to boot all the NFs off the INTP central island.

    And yet, over all the years Ive been here, the pedestalling of NTs and their abilities has been a routine practice that only lately really has eased up.

    Overall, in most of the world, IQ is still the thing that is measured and appreciated most and often the definition of intelligence. And that thing relates for the most part to NT strengths - which is not to say that other types cannot score high. It's like a white man's privilege, comparatively, in impact. Other kinds of intelligences are either ignored or instantly compared to and often found wanting and considered frivolous in the shadow of IQ.

    Also, average IQ is considered 'normal'. It isn't praised, it is expected and mocked when deemed wanting. That is my point. Social skills are penalised for specialisation, whereas average is considered good enough - there is more leniency there, to the point where we're frauds in the areas where specialisation is necessary to get the job done properly, whereas with IQ the opposite is true. The baseline is very different.

    And then Im not even taking into account the other areas of intelligence out there.
    I think that such is because social skills can be used to take someone down either face-to-face, in a roundabout fashion (say, either "rope-a-dope" or turning a conversation or the consensus in a group, against the non-socially-skilled), or, plain "stab-in-the-back" wise. So it's harder to defend against, and can do its work even while hidden from the target (unless the target is equally socially savvy).
    Conventional IQ is pretty much like a Dirac Delta function: infinite on one point, pretty much useless otherwise. And even within its sphere of influence, it can be neutralized socially.

    (Speaking as an INTJ...)
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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