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  1. #1
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    Default An INTJ whose been making all the first moves... and would really like some help

    So I’ve been seeing this lovely ENTJ girl for about four months, though we’ve only officially been a couple since early December. I’m embarrassed to admit that I feel like I’ve fallen head-over-heels for her. We both took quite a liking to each other quickly, but she was reluctant to commit, and I was reluctant to open myself up, so it was a bit of an awkward courtship in the beginning. Definitely the kind of psychological game/power struggle that I’ve heard can be typical of an INTJ/ENTJ couple; neither of us wanted to be the first to make themselves vulnerable to the other (is my speculation).

    Then, about a week ago, I decided to take an uncharacteristic risk. “I think I love you,” I told her. Apparently she’d thought the same thing about a week or two prior, but decided not to say anything. She told me, “I didn’t think you were ready yet.” But then, she began to say something along the lines of, “can we really love each other after only four months?” Shortly after though, she began hinting of a cheap promise ring that she pointed out to me wal-mart, be didn’t explicitly suggest a desire for it when she first saw it.

    And finally, just the other night (which was the next time we saw each other), I decided to give her a casual, “love you,” saying goodbye to her. Perhaps I’m reading too much into this, but she hesitated before she said it back. She seemed to almost mumble a little bit, something like, “Yeah. *mumble,* love you too.”

    So I’ve come up with a few possible ideas of what this might mean…

    1) She was taken aback, because she simply wasn’t expecting me to say something like that.

    2) She hesitated because she wasn’t sure if she meant it (neither of us explicitly said, “I love you,” the week before. Only, “I think I love you.”)

    3) She hesitated because she didn’t want to be/isn’t used to being emotionally vulnerable.

    4) Something else, that I don’t the ability to guess.



    I’m thinking of getting her that promise ring for either Valentine’s Day, or her birthday (which is a week or two before V-day). I actually didn’t know what a promise ring represented until I asked her, and she explained that it’s more or less, a kind of pre-engagement ring – the ‘promise’ is to say that I’m committed to something long-term, and want to see where things will go.

    At the same, however, her hesitation in saying that she loved me has brought up some lingering doubts, due to her initial aversion in wanting to actually be a couple. This takes me back to square one: I’m concerned about my level of emotional vulnerability in relation to her level of emotional investment. I don’t want to make any sort of promises to her (literal or figurative), if she isn’t emotionally invested enough to be receptive of them.

    So for anyone that’s still reading, what I’m asking for here is guidance. I’m stereotypically incompetent when it comes to understanding these types of situations, so I’m hoping that some outside help will give me a little better perspective.

    Do you think her hesitation in saying she loved me held any significance?

    Do you think it might be too soon to give her something like a promise ring?



    P.S.

    I should probably mention that despite being an ENTJ, she’s a relatively devout Catholic. She spoke of what promise rings represent, and the idea seems to be quite meaningful to her. She’s also said on multiple occasions in the past that she believes people too often say that they love each other without really meaning it (which I believe as well). I know these both may seem like small gestures from the outside looking in, but I ask that you at least humor me in the belief that they aren’t. I wouldn’t have typed all of this for nothing.

    You have my genuine thanks if you've read all of this and decide to give your opinion.

  2. #2
    WALMART
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Cheney View Post
    I should probably mention that despite being an ENTJ, she’s a relatively devout Catholic.
    strongly questioning your understanding

    beyond that, your first insistence of love was a love you at a moment of departure. it possibly caught her off guard, for a multitude of reasons.

    i would confer in her asap that you love her (presuming you feel this way), preferably with the three committing words, i love you. at that moment, you shall be absolved of worry, regardless of outcome.


  3. #3
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Cheney View Post
    So I’ve come up with a few possible ideas of what this might mean…

    1) She was taken aback, because she simply wasn’t expecting me to say something like that.

    2) She hesitated because she wasn’t sure if she meant it (neither of us explicitly said, “I love you,” the week before. Only, “I think I love you.”)

    3) She hesitated because she didn’t want to be/isn’t used to being emotionally vulnerable.

    4) Something else, that I don’t the ability to guess.
    Likely a combination of 1-3 at least. I wouldn't put too much weight on this one way or another. My SO (INTP) and I have been together for over 10 years, and I hardly ever say "I love you" to him. He must know it from the other things I do, however, otherwise our relationship would not have lasted so long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Cheney View Post
    Do you think it might be too soon to give her something like a promise ring?
    If I were in your shoes, I would be very apprehensive about giving it to her, just out of native paranoia and fear of overstepping/rejection. I would instead set up a nice date together - casual and informal, but serious in clearly being time for the two of you alone. Tell her about your intention, and your hesitation: that you were inclined to get it for her because of how much she and the relationship have come to mean to you, but that you don't want to rush her or presume what her feelings are. Tell her if she feels the same about you, you will get it together right after dinner (or whatever your date entails).
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown
    strongly questioning your understanding
    You probably should, to be honest. I'm not really one for religion, so I specified 'relatively' devout, as in relatively devout, in terms of my understanding of Catholicism. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis
    If I were in your shoes, I would be very apprehensive about giving it to her, just out of native paranoia and fear of overstepping/rejection. I would instead set up a nice date together - casual and informal, but serious in clearly being time for the two of you alone. Tell her about your intention, and your hesitation: that you were inclined to get it for her because of how much she and the relationship have come to mean to you, but that you don't want to rush her or presume what her feelings are. Tell her if she feels the same about you, you will get it together right after dinner (or whatever your date entails).
    Kind of surprised I didn't think of this myself. This seems like good advice, thank you.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Cheney View Post
    You probably should, to be honest. I'm not really one for religion, so I specified 'relatively' devout, as in relatively devout, in terms of my understanding of Catholicism. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.
    hehe. you're nice about it, at least - but no, i'm not sure you're onto what i'm onto.

    good luck, I hope it goes well.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown
    hehe. you're nice about it, at least - but no, i'm not sure you're onto what i'm onto.

    good luck, I hope it goes well.
    Oh, I guess I missed the point. Well come on, don't say something like that and then not expect me to be curious as to what you're onto. What exactly did you mean?

    And thanks for the good luck -- I hope it goes well, too.

  7. #7
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    @Old Cheney,

    Catholic ENTJ girl checking in here.

    First I want to say that my previous relationship with an INTJ was easily one of the most challenging and beautiful experiences of my life. I'm a much better woman for having been involved with him.

    That said, ENTJs are not exactly the most hearts and flowers type of woman you can find out there. It's always been easier for me to express love and other strong feelings through actions than words. Love for me is saying that I will always put your needs first, I will protect you and I will do everything in my power to ensure that you have not just everything you need in this life, but all you might want as well.

    That said, we need a lot of reassurance until we reach a point of total commitment. Telling someone we love them, making ourselves vulnerable in that way, is usually followed by a lot of "testing". Vulnerability is terrifying to us, and we fight it like hell until we're finally certain that we won't be hurt. Without reassurance, expect things to get worse with your lady before they get better.

    In order to preempt some of inferior Fi's worst shenanigans, the best you can do is a couple of things. First of all, recognize her insecurity and call her out on it. Letting her know that you understand her fear, but aren't going anywhere is of the utmost. Second, talk her through what she's going through. Many times the distancing and testing behaviors occur unconsciously. We don't necessarily have the insight into our own emotions to know why we're doing what we're doing. We simply know there's a threat and are trying to mitigate it by exerting control via detaching ourselves from the source of it. I was fortunate enough to have been involved with an INTJ who was ridiculously patient with me and was willing time and time again to sit me down, help me to recognize my patterns and help me to grow enough to get over my own bullshit.

    Establishing trust with an ENTJ is about consistency. Do what you say you're going to do, don't put up with things you know are shenanigans and most importantly make sure she knows that you accept her and still love her even when she's not some superwoman field marshall. We don't want a push over. Ultimately what an ENTJ woman is seeking is a partner who she can trust and respect enough to allow to take the wheel from time to time. It doesn't take much for us to take a hint that someone is up to the task and even willing to be that person for us, but it's by no means a given in our mind. Once you've proven yourself in that way, however, you'll discover that we're pretty much the definition of soppy sentimentalist. There's nothing that gives me more pleasure than making a huge fuss over someone I love. I'm admittedly somewhat practical about it, though. I love cooking for my guy, cleaning up after him and just generally ensuring that he feels petted and adored. Naturally, this involves a copious amount of sex, as well. It admittedly gets somewhat excessive, because ENTJ, but no man whose ever been loved by an ENTJ woman has ever had to wonder whether he was adored or not.

    My point is that loving an ENTJ woman will never be easy. We will, as my mother once said of me, occasionally make the man we love swim up a river of shit just because. But if you truly love this woman, and think she's worth it, then I promise you that you could not have a more devoted, loyal or doting partner in the long run.

    Best of luck to you, OP.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  8. #8
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    Very helpful post, Rex, thanks. I was hoping to get at least one opinion from an ENTJ girl, but bonus points on being Catholic, too - small world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex
    That said, we need a lot of reassurance until we reach a point of total commitment. Telling someone we love them, making ourselves vulnerable in that way, is usually followed by a lot of "testing". Vulnerability is terrifying to us, and we fight it like hell until we're finally certain that we won't be hurt. Without reassurance, expect things to get worse with your lady before they get better.
    What sort of testing are we talking about, here?

    In order to preempt some of inferior Fi's worst shenanigans, the best you can do is a couple of things. First of all, recognize her insecurity and call her out on it.
    She's actually been very forward with me about her own emotional shortcomings, so far. Although I wouldn't say that she's remarkably well-developed, she's very aware and relatively open with regard to her weaknesses. I was always kind of concerned that just calling her out on them, knowing that, might come off the wrong way and be interpreted as aggression or frustration on my part.

    Letting her know that you understand her fear, but aren't going anywhere is of the utmost. Second, talk her through what she's going through. Many times the distancing and testing behaviors occur unconsciously. We don't necessarily have the insight into our own emotions to know why we're doing what we're doing. We simply know there's a threat and are trying to mitigate it by exerting control via detaching ourselves from the source of it. I was fortunate enough to have been involved with an INTJ who was ridiculously patient with me and was willing time and time again to sit me down, help me to recognize my patterns and help me to grow enough to get over my own bullshit.
    If you could be a little more specific on these distancing and testing behaviors, I'd appreciate it. I can't say that I've noticed anything in particular that sticks out, but I do have a tendency to miss the subtleties in these kinds of situations.




    First I want to say that my previous relationship with an INTJ was easily one of the most challenging and beautiful experiences of my life. I'm a much better woman for having been involved with him.
    If it isn't too much to ask, could you explain how things ended? I totally understand if it's private, and won't mind at all if you choose to keep it private, but even if you PM me, the added insight would be greatly appreciated.

    That said, ENTJs are not exactly the most hearts and flowers type of woman you can find out there. It's always been easier for me to express love and other strong feelings through actions than words. Love for me is saying that I will always put your needs first, I will protect you and I will do everything in my power to ensure that you have not just everything you need in this life, but all you might want as well.
    Overall this lack of stereotypical, girly behavior is actually something I'm very fond of. Not that I have anything against the hearts-on-their-sleeves girly girls, but it's refreshing not to be drowned in affection 24/7, and especially refreshing for her to not expect me to drown her in affection in return. Then again, my last relationship was with an ISFP, so maybe I've grown a little biased.

    Again, this was a very helpful comment. Thank you.

  9. #9
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    You are so cute. <Squishs you >!!!


    Gonna give you the absolute best and most cliche advice:

    Talk to her. Say everything you've just said to us. Make a list if you have to and go over it with her. It would help, I think you'd appreciate how easy it will be to establish a solid understanding rather than be in this state of ambiguity.

  10. #10
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Do you think that religion might be a point of concern for her? If she's a pretty devout catholic, it might be. Don't know what your own religious position is, but some people really care about their religion. On the other hand, maybe she wouldn't have gone as far as she has if that was an issue... Ignore me.

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